Buyer Gave Neg Unfairly

[21ladyluck]

Buyer bought a puzzle from me. It's securely wrapped and put in a large envelope to keep the postage down.

So there is NO tracking unless the buyer wants to pay for a "signature", which they don't for low cost items.

I always take photos while at the post office of the buyers address and AP postage imprint.

Buyer emailed me she never got it. I sent her the photo showing it was sent and to check with the post office.

She said it was my fault as there was no tracking. That wouldn't have helped anyway as we all know. I explained why.

I said I was sorry but I'm not responsible and will not give a refund. After all, I have NO proof that she did not get it and simply wanted the money back. We all know there are some buyers like that.

So she's given me neg feedback unfairly. It's the first one I've gotten and I have over 1500 feedbacks.

How do I reply to her negative feedback to tell the truth about what happened ??

Pam

[the_billycan]

What PJ has failed to realise is that this clerk has made him/her/whatever an accessory after the fact to misappropriation of the mail. It would only take one onlooker who was aware of the law, to drop him and the clerk into the deep end of the poop pool.

[davewil1964]

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@the_billycan wrote:

eBay mandated a payment method that provides a buyer with a level of protection after they stopped providing that protection under the eBay banner even though that was one of the reasons sellers were paying their fees, so that they could justify the use of Preypal (you know that company they bought) and double dip on the fees. You say I have a choice of 3 payment methods and then give sound reasons not to use the other 2. Then you claim I have a choice. Wow, that is one twisted argument!! Pick a side and stick to it.

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My side is Paypal. I could offer merchant CC, but it would only be in conjunction with Paypal, not a substitute. And not worth the hassles, for me. So I don't. After all I can pay for my postage, my phone, my eBay fees, potentially a lot of other services in the future, with Paypal. Saves a lot of money shuffling and potential fees.

Seems to me we agree that Paypal is the best 'safe' payment method to accept, given you agree that I have given sound reasons not to use the others. Any seller can pick one or more, it depends on whether they want to sell or not.

[davewil1964]

Anything unregistered can be dropped in a box, regardless of the method of postage payment.

I've posted stuff where the staff member has explicitly directed me to post in the box outside. If it is not registered/tracked how is that a breach of any law? I would be extremely interested in you posting a link to the statute/regulation that says payment for postage means mandatory lodgement over the counter. AP's Click and Send service would no doubt be equally interested.

[the_billycan]

I make no claims to know the particular regulations pertaining to Click & Send as it came into use after I retired and to be honest knowing what goes on in AP, I don't trust the concept. Unfortunately I can't quote you a specific statute as you requested. Perhaps a customer service officer in the Australia Post shop here can help with that. I do know for certain, what happens to delivery staff/contractors just for delaying the mail. Take it from me, I would rather face the guards in a Russian gulag than Australia Post security. A mail officer, even in a franchise, has a responsibility to maintain control of all mail once it has been lodged (no matter whether it is registered/tracked or not). It isn't a case of oh that item is worth a thousand dollars but this item is just granny's birthday card and so we don't have to worry if it is stolen. Once lodged, an item of mail may receive different treatment with regard to speed of delivery etc but all lodgements (even granny's birthday card) are equal under the law if misappropriated. Would you have it any other way?   

If as you say, you have been directed to post an item outside, then they have broken regulations and opened the both of you to criminal action. If they want it put in the box outside because the mail van driver doesn't enter the franchise, then they are required to do it themselves.

[the_billycan]

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@davewil1964 wrote:
 

Seems to me we agree that Paypal is the best 'safe' payment method to accept, given you agree that I have given sound reasons not to use the others. Any seller can pick one or more, it depends on whether they want to sell or not.

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Yes where we differ is I can't see how it is a safe method for me, the seller. I am the one paying for it, but it doesn't protect me at all. If a buyer wants payment protection, then he should be paying for it. Preypal should be gleaning their fees from the buyers account not the sellers. If you were to buy a house at auction, you wouldn't expect the vendor to pay your house and contents policy. I have never come across a car dealer, who pays for your comprehesive insurance either. eBay use it to cover themselves from loss or liability, not the buyer and certainly not the seller. Just because eBay makes a statement about their motives, it doesn't automatically make it factual.

Please don't suggest some rubbish about building it into my prices. I am at the whim of the market and trying to assess ahead of time what the fees might be is just too hard.

[phorum_junkie*]

Anything unregistered can be dropped in a box, regardless of the method of postage payment.

My point exactly, a printed stamp label is exactly the same as one you buy and stick on yourself, they are not lodged in the same as a registered letter or a parcel, there is no record of them in the system other than the fact a 'stamp' worth $x has been purchased exactly the same as if you buy an ordinary stamp. 

[the_billycan]

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@phorum_junkie* wrote:

Anything unregistered can be dropped in a box, regardless of the method of postage payment.

My point exactly, a printed stamp label is exactly the same as one you buy and stick on yourself, they are not lodged in the same as a registered letter or a parcel, there is no record of them in the system other than the fact a 'stamp' worth $x has been purchased exactly the same as if you buy an ordinary stamp. 

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Once again, what seller would pay for postage for an item they had no intention of posting, given that it was such a low value item. I suppose it is unlikely a seller would rely on a photograph as proof of posting for an expensive item but then again if the item is expensive, surely they would request registered mail anyway. For the purposes of the OP, I would say a picture of a sealed, stamped, addressed envelope is proof enough. You don't agree? That's OK, just don't expect Preypal to refund you.

BTW, next time a mail clerk asks you to put the mail you have just lodged in the letter receiver outside, I would refuse if I were you.

[colic2bullsgirlore]

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@crikey*mate wrote:

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@digital*ghost wrote:

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@crikey*mate wrote:

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the disclaimer will be ineffective - your disclaimer cannot trump the law.

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Disclaimers can't trump the law, but that is a legal disclaimer to make and many businesses do make just such a disclaimer (except on ebay, where it is a breach of policy to state that you won't take resposibility for lost or damaged mail unless a registered / insured service is selected).

Consider the scenario where a seller uses C&S without SOD - no cover at all, but proof of postage is provided. The buyer can not enforce a refund or compensation from the seller or Australia Post. The only reason PayPal facilitate refunds (from the seller) for INR is when the seller can't prove they posted, ergo (I presume) the assumption is that they didn't.

In a court of law, the proofs required would be quite different, and would encompass a much broader range of evidence.

I understand most of the time discussions here are limited to the world of eBay and PayPal, and there are practicalities involved when dealing with both, but the world is much bigger than those two. 

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Dig, policies don't trump the law in real life either

The law tells us when we are and aren't responsible for something and it doesn't matter if Snow White and seven secret ninjas write a disclaimer, if it is against what the lasws say a consumer's rights are and what a seller's responsibilities are, then it's just not going to stick.

and you're going to have to make the rest of your post using smaller words and slowert typing, cos I'm not understanding.

and tell me what proofs that you believe would be required in a court of law for whatever it is you're talking about, cos I'm struggling to join the dots (and I've had 3 hours sleep now, too!)

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Crikey All these rather larger companies have a disclaimer that avails the buyer of the risks and also the exact point where

the title of a remotely bought item  changes from seller to buyer.

They do this to reinforce the clauses of the SOGA by which the exchange is controlled .

Disclaimers do not override contract law but rather

....they are a part of the contract ....

ticketmaster

 Tickets sent by normal mail or express delivery cannot be traced and no responsibility will be taken for tickets sent by this method. Alternatively your tickets may be collected from the venue on the day of the performance. Please check box office operating hours. In some instances where a venue collection is not available, alternative arrangements may be offered. Please check the purchase page for that event.

sugar free zone

Liability
Whilst we will take due care to adequately pack your goods, we cannot be held responsible for goods damaged or lost due to circumstances that are beyond our control. This applies to goods in transit or after delivery. We will gladly follow up on any delivery problems with Australia Post, but by placing an order with Sugar Free Zone Pty Ltd, to the extent permissable by Australian law,
the purchaser absolves Sugar Free Zone Pty Ltd and its employees of any responsibility for the goods once they have been delivered in good condition to our local post office.

mothers direct wholly owned  Subsidiary of Australian breastfeeding association

Your order will be dispatched by either Australia Post standard mail or independent courier. Please choose which method you would like to use at the check out. We strongly advise that orders over $200 in value are sent by courier, as these orders can be tracked. Mothers Direct can not be liable for goods lost in transit by Australia Post, as these are not trackable.

New style direct

# Titles to the goods purchased by you remain with us until you have paid for them.  Once the goods are paid for in full, the title will pass to you. .
# Risk in the goods passes to you when the goods are taken from storage at our warehouse for delivery to you.  We recommend that you insure the goods until delivery to you.

bluray entertainment

Where returned goods are lost, or damaged in transit THE BUYER will hold full responsibility and will be required to consult with the 3rd party shipment provider in an effort to obtain compensation in this instance. Under such circumstances, BLURAY ENTERTAINMENT will not offer any form of refund, exchange or store credit.
This is in the same manner as BLURAY ENTERTAINMENT applies when we send goods to all of our customers in good faith.




danoz direct

Danoz Direct will not be responsible for items that are lost or misdirected

Title to the goods purchased by you remains with us until you have paid for them. Once the goods are paid for in full, the title will pass to you.

[colic2bullsgirlore]

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@the_billycan wrote:

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@phorum_junkie* wrote:

Anything unregistered can be dropped in a box, regardless of the method of postage payment.

My point exactly, a printed stamp label is exactly the same as one you buy and stick on yourself, they are not lodged in the same as a registered letter or a parcel, there is no record of them in the system other than the fact a 'stamp' worth $x has been purchased exactly the same as if you buy an ordinary stamp. 

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Once again, what seller would pay for postage for an item they had no intention of posting, given that it was such a low value item. I suppose it is unlikely a seller would rely on a photograph as proof of posting for an expensive item but then again if the item is expensive, surely they would request registered mail anyway. For the purposes of the OP, I would say a picture of a sealed, stamped, addressed envelope is proof enough. You don't agree? That's OK, just don't expect Preypal to refund you.

BTW, next time a mail clerk asks you to put the mail you have just lodged in the letter receiver outside, I would refuse if I were you.

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Im with you billycan. Once the post office employee has handled the article and the postage is paid then the AP TOS deems it

lodged.

By handing the lodged item to a person other than the receiver (without ascertaining that that person is authorized to accept the

receivers mail) then the AP employee has broken a Commonwealth law and breached  AP's terms and conditions

and enabled the 'Theft of mail before it is delivered' see the link below.

Whether the item is eventually successfully delivered or not is irrelevant to the original breach

http://www.afp.gov.au/contact/report-a-crime.aspx

[colic2bullsgirlore]

http://auspost.com.au/media/documents/AP-TCs.pdf

lodge

means to lodge a postal article with Australia Post for carriage by post as follows:

(i)placing it in a post box;

(ii)delivering it to the holder of a community bag;

(iii)delivering it to an employee at an office;

(iv)delivering it to a mail contractor while he is in the course of his duties;

(v) delivering it to a postal delivery officer while he is in the course of his duties and
provided that it is not impracticable for the postal delivery officer to accept the
article;

(vi) provided however that:
(a) where a person requires a receipt acknowledging the posting of an article that is to be sent by registered post, the article must be lodged only by delivering it to the holder of a community bag or to an employee at an office
(b) a cash on delivery article must be lodged only by delivering it to an employee at an office at which cash on delivery articles are received; and
(c) an article to which the separate bag service applies must be lodged only by delivering it to an employee at an office.

(vii) an express post article, other than an express post parcel, may be lodged for carriage only if it has, where required, a signed sender's declaration and it is either:
(a)placed in a postbox that is marked as a box in which express post articles may be placed; or
(b)delivered to an employee at an office specified by Australia Post as an office for the acceptance of express post articles.

(viii) an express post parcel may be lodged for carriage only by signing the sender 's declaration and delivering it to an
employee at an office specified by Australia Post as an office for the acceptance of express post articles;

(ix)PreSort Letter service, Clean Mail Letter service, Impact Mail, Acquisition Mail, local delivery service, unaddressed delivery service or Print Post service articles shall be lodged only in accordance with the conditions applying to that service;

(x)an article affixed with a postage paid imprint shall be lodged by handing it to an employee at an office approved by Australia Post for the lodgment of articles affixed with postage paid imprints;

(xi) an article lodged in a private post box shall be deemed to have been lodged at thetime when it is collected by an Australia Post employee
(xii)placing in a self service terminal

Australia Post Terms and Conditions

52 PART E LIMITATION OF AUSTRALIA POST’S LIABILITY PRELIMINARY

67 Interpretation

67.1In this part unless the contrary intention appears:

67.1.1 " carriage " includes carriage by an employee before lodgment and after delivery in a bag that has been sealed by Australia Post or has been locked or held by a community bag holder for lodgment at an office or for delivery to an addressee