Item Lost in the Post. Do I refund buyer?

[onyxbutterfly2912]

Hi all,  My buyer is intimating that I never posted her item.  Because it was sent Standard Postage, I can't even give her a tracking number. What do others do in these cases?  It has happened to me several times now and one even went into dispute via Paypal.  Long and short of it I had to refund her money and I was out of pocket for postage for two items and the two items  themselves worth approx $100.

Although you can put into your listing a note to say you are not responsible for Australia Post losing something, the buyer does not really care.  They just want their item or their money.

All thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks a lot

[thecatspjs]

TB you select and mingle "facts" with quite subjective editing and commentary.

You have posted several incorrect "facts" - including that:

... and those rules provide for a lesser onus of proof than the PayPal policy.  That is, PayPal’s policy that the dated receipt containing the postcode is sufficient to prove postage, sets the bar higher than what the Rules of Evidence requires.

IMO this is your opinion

IMO consideration is relevant and given on a case by case basis, with outcomes and decisions contingent on not only this, but a number of other factors, including value of goods.

[phorum_junkie*]

Another way things have gone missing are when I have sent overseas.  Usually the US.

For the US, UK, NZ and Singapore you can now use Pack &  Track.

The main beef I have with TB is that whatever the SoG, Distance Selling Regs or anything else says it has nothing to do with Paypal.

Paypal is a 3rd party payment facility and it is entirely up to them what policies they put in place regarding proof of delivery.

If a seller is a registered business and if the item was sold BIN and not at auction then they have to abide by those regulations but that does not mean they can circumvent Paypal's requirements by quoting anything other than Paypal policy, in its entirety, not just bits that appear to support a spurious argument.

Conversely if you are a buyer you can avail yourself of Paypal buyer protection if it is available for the item you purchased and if the person you purchase from is a registered business and you bought BIN then you have a second string to your bow.

[breracing-1]

Paypal Seller Protection Policy requires proof that an item was posted to the buyer's address in the transaction advice. Paypal's definition of that proof is a postage receipt containing the date and postcode of the buyer's suburb as a minimum as stated in the User Agreement.

Should Paypal deny a Seller Protection Claim on the basis of the seller providing only the minimum requirement in proof of postage, a dated tax invoice from AP showing buyer's postcode which is what a till receipt contains, the seller has the right to argue that Paypal have breached their acceptable proof of postage policy and furthermore, the seller could argue because the Paypal proof of postage policy permits only a dated receipt containing buyer's postcode is the reason the seller didn't request a proper Lodgement Receipt at the AP counter when having the opportunity to do so at lodgement.

In other words, Paypal have failed to disclose in their policy that a dated receipt containing buyer's postcode is not an acceptable form of proof of postage if a seller protection claim is denied on that basis when in fact the seller has complied with the proof of postage policy as written.

On a personal note, I wouldn't trust that a till receipt wouldn't cause drama's in the resolution process of an INR claim where a proper Lodgement Receipt is uncontestable in proof of where the item was sent and remains IMHO the better option over the date and postcode routine.

[breracing-1]

Furthermore, I have also had drama's with an INR claim after providing Paypal with a proper AP Registered Post Lodgement Receipt to the buyer's name and address and a till receipt showing date and postcode where Paypal emailed me requesting proof of delivery otherwise the claim would be resolved in the buyer's favour? After several phone calls to Paypal and finally speaking with a supervisor to inform them that they were applying USA policy to an Australian transaction before they accepted proof of postage in defence of the claim. Given that a large proportion of Paypal staff don't know their own policies to apply correctly in the first place, the easier you can present a case or defence when you a dealing with idiots the better IMHO. 

[davewil1964]

A fact because the NSW Supreme Court said so; a finding that is binding on every low court, tribunal or quasi judicial authority (including the FOS) irrespective of whether they agree with it or not.

Surely you jest, tb. A NSW Supreme Court ruling may be used as a precedent in other jurisdictions but is not binding. Unless it's a Federal court ruling, which trumps a State ruling (to the extent that the State ruling is not in accordance with the Federal one). I believe the FOS is Federal.

Ah, the joys of 9 different legal systems for a country of 22 million.

[thecatspjs]

oh dear.  I like the points you have made in your post davewil.

I must be losing the few marbles I have left. 😮

[davewil1964]

We can't disagree on everything. :^O

[thecatspjs]

I s'pose, but we have done pretty well up until now 😉

...running off to find marbles ...

[tall_bearded]

How the law applies to eBay transactions you may want to read

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/journals/JlLawInfoSci/2008/4.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=ebay

To gain a basic understanding how Precedent works you may want to start with

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/other/CompLRes/2005/17.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=citation%20rules

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/journals/AULawLib/1999/7.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=citation%20rules

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/journals/MurUEJL/1997/35.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=citation%20rules

Now I’ll be a away for a couple of weeks, so please read the above and then if you still want to take issue with what I’ve said, we’ll take it up when I get back.

[thecatspjs]

Gosh TB, thanks for the assistance to gain a basic understanding of how Precedents work, however I have a much wider understanding of policy instruments and their application down the line, than you seem to be able to understand.