Item Lost in the Post. Do I refund buyer?

[onyxbutterfly2912]

Hi all,  My buyer is intimating that I never posted her item.  Because it was sent Standard Postage, I can't even give her a tracking number. What do others do in these cases?  It has happened to me several times now and one even went into dispute via Paypal.  Long and short of it I had to refund her money and I was out of pocket for postage for two items and the two items  themselves worth approx $100.

Although you can put into your listing a note to say you are not responsible for Australia Post losing something, the buyer does not really care.  They just want their item or their money.

All thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks a lot

[tall_bearded]

Davewil

“Standard post, regardless of what TB says, puts at least a moral obligation on the seller to refund”

I would agree, but only when buyers also a accept that they have moral obligation to provide a secure drop off point.

The item belongs to the buyer as soon as they have paid for it. Therefore, is it really too much to expect that they take some responsibility for the safekeeping of something they own, something as simple as spending a few bucks to have it delivered by a secure service or have a safe drop box installed.

However, if my personal experience and what appears on these boards is anything to go by, then the expectation is: ‘I’ll simply pay for the cheapest delivery service knowing that if I’m not home it will be safe dropped, and though I haven’t provided a secure drop of point, I still expect that if, before I get home someone avails themselves of a five finger discount, that the seller will give me my money back.

The point is, the data now clearly points to items going missing after they have been safe dropped as being the reason behind nearly 90% of item not received claims.  In fact, it was that data which allowed Aust Post to modify it Discretionary Claims process to exclude claims for lost items sent regular post.

Sigmatraders

“It is better you send your parcel by registered , click and send or eparcel service which provide the tracking service. Then you will never lost it.”

Tracking has nothing to do with secure delivery.  All that tracking does is prove you sent it.

Take for instance Click and Send.  Unless the buyer pays to have it registered or for receipted delivery, then when it comes to what happens to it when it arrives at the intended destination, it’s treated in exactly the same way as if it had been sent regular post.  That is,  if the buyer is not home it is safe dropped, which usually means, if the buyer doesn’t have a secure drop of point installed, it’s  simply placed under the front door mat.

[phorum_junkie*]

Tracking has nothing to do with secure delivery.  All that tracking does is prove you sent it.

Which is all you need to win a Paypal claim BUT you have to prove you sent it to the buyer's address!

I have just had Paypal initially find against me as a buyer when the seller provided a tracking number for a red satchel! It took just one very quick phonecall before the money was back in my account after I pointed out that the tracking only showed delivery to a mail centre covering thousands of addresses.

[tall_bearded]

So what has that got to do with my response.

At post 90 Sigmatraders said “ It is better you send your parcel by registered , click and send or eparcel service which provide the tracking service. Then you will never lost it.’(Emphasis is mine)

That is if you send it by trackable means it is at a lower risk of been lost than if it is sent regular post, whereas, unless the service selected also includes receipted delivery, the risk of loss is the same.

As for your example, is this not simply a case of manipulating the policy to exclude those parts you don’t agree with.

The PayPal Proof of Shipping policy clearly stated “A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient's suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent) (again emphasis is mine)

Now if you give all of the above words there natural meaning, does that not mean, to satisfy the policy all the seller has to do is provide proof it was sent to a suburb, a city or a postcode, and any one of these on their own is proof sufficient for the purposes of the policy.  Now if you agree this is what the policy actually says, then isn’t the fact that the mail centre into which it was recorded as received covers  “thousands of addresses”  is of no relevance for the purposes of the policy. 

That is, just because you were able to convince some uniformed individual in some call centre in some third world country to overlook what PayPal policy actually says because you didn’t like the outcome doesn’t make the outcome correct.

Or in the alternative, could it be a case of the person with whom you spoke correctly applied the policy by finding that postage had actually been proved, but decided to get you off their back by following the path of least resistance by making a discretionary payment.

[jonnn2004]

Yeah right, couldn't have tried harder...

The buyer has to be a complete jerk, to not respond and let you know what's going on! Why would you give negative feedback, The seller has lost the money, lost the item, The buyer will get the money back from paypal 100% of the time..So is Negative feedback necessary.

As soon as I sent the refund offer I checked back and the dispute was there( wouldn't have had time to read my offer yet)..So I was still waiting for a response from her..

This has happened to me as a buyer and if I believe they actually sent it,I would never in a million years give them Negative feedback!

[thecatspjs]

TB as I have posted before you recite paypal proof of post policy word perfect, however this is in section 3 of the agreement.

To be eligible for protection in the first place you need to meet four criteria.  One of the criteria is proof of post. Another different criteria is proof of sending to address on ebay order form. 

Paypal only mention postcodes as an example in relation to proof of post, not in relation to proof of order form address. Whilst some documentation may meet both tests, some won't. 

[global-mutual]

Bear in mind this is not a private mail. Item 15 is much clear for me to understand what the message was about.

[tall_bearded]

Thecatspjs

I don’t see where what you are getting at.

Clause 1.2 of the First Schedule does clearly state that one of the prerequisite for Seller Protection is that the seller must prove that the item has been sent to “the address specified on the "Transaction Details Page", but the clause doesn’t specify what level of proof is required. That is it absolute proof or proof on the balance of probabilities.

Now clause 3.1 under of the same schedule clearly states that when the buyer makes a claim for a reversal PayPal will require the seller to provide it ‘proof of shipping’ but again what constitutes proof of shipping is not defined the schedule.

Therefore if this was the end of the matter I would have to concede that under the rules governing interpretation I would have to the words "Transaction Details Page” and “ proof of shipping’  their ordinary natural meaning and if one combines the two they could only be interpreted to mean proof it was sent to the specific the specific address as provide in “Transaction Details Page”.

However things are not quite that simple.  Though the schedule doesn’t define what proof of shipping is, the policy under the heading ‘Definition and Interpretation’ does, and because policy gives these words a specific, the rules governing Interpretation say they no long retain their ordinary meaning.

Put simply as I can the PayPal policy defines proof of shipping as something less proof it was sent to a specific address.  Instead the policy states that proof of shipping is satisfied if the seller can prove it was sent to the suburb, or city or postcode in which the buyer resides.  That is address specified on the "Transaction Details Page” establish the requirement, with proof of shipping being how the requirement is satisfied, and with policy defining what actual defining the level of proof required.

[jhmccall]

One of the comments above did state that receipts for small parcels (which is  almost always the way my items are sent) have the postcode of the buyer on them.     I know they used to  but recently I have noticed on my receipts that the postcode is not mentioned.

Perhaps we can request the PO to indicate the postcode when issuing the receipt for postage.   That would be some slight proof of postage.

[beautbots01]

TB I can't tell you how refreshing it is to read your commentary.  Keep it up.  We need to keep the debate going.

[thecatspjs]

Lol TB - can you actually read my posts close enough to understand that I am not disagreeing with you regarding proof of posting or shipping a parcel.

I am disagreeing with you about proof of addressee.

The policy is not defined in the way you describe. It is your opinion based on your interpretation. 

My opinion and interpretation of the policy is different than yours.

You can bang on all you like about "proof of posting" but IMO and experience it remains a separate requirement to addressee details.

In the case of a buyer claim of not received for example, proof of post of a parcel can be verified via a scan of tracking or lodgement receipt showing date and postcode area.

However, if the address proof you provide is different than that of the address on the ebay order details page (which buyer processes at checkout and paypal pulls its transaction data from)  then you lose your protection.

You are linking them together as one and the same requirement, but I do not. They are each set out in the first clause as two distinct and separate criteria for IMO for good reason. They are two separate tests. 

1. That a seller addressed a parcel to a buyer using the address specified for that transaction  -

examples of proof= C&Send or EParcel label with tracking number or other consignment paperwork, A/P lodgement receipt showing complete address ie. registered post, platinum post etc.

2. That said parcel was sent to buyer from the seller

examples of proof= lodgement receipt, tracking, delivery receipt signature).