Item Lost in the Post. Do I refund buyer?

[onyxbutterfly2912]

Hi all,  My buyer is intimating that I never posted her item.  Because it was sent Standard Postage, I can't even give her a tracking number. What do others do in these cases?  It has happened to me several times now and one even went into dispute via Paypal.  Long and short of it I had to refund her money and I was out of pocket for postage for two items and the two items  themselves worth approx $100.

Although you can put into your listing a note to say you are not responsible for Australia Post losing something, the buyer does not really care.  They just want their item or their money.

All thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks a lot

[tall_bearded]

And this is why your argument fails.

The one policy cannot define the same thing to provide conflicting outcomes.  That is, the policy cannot on the one hand say you are coved under the Seller Protection policy if you provide proof of shipping, with the minimum proof required bring a dated document showing that it was sent to the suburb, city, or postcode as contained in the Transaction Details Page and then go on to say, even though you provide the require proof to the standard required, we are still going to reverse the transaction because you didn’t prove you sent it the buyers specific address.  It has to be one or the other.  It can’t be both

However the clause and the definition are not in conflict.  In fact they are mutually supportive.

Clause 2.1 requires I do something. I must send the goods it to the place as told to me by PayPal, and once I have completed that task, subject to the satisfaction of the other 3 eligibility requirements, I am eligible for seller protection.

Then after becoming eligible, should the buyer lodge an item not received claim, the Seller Protection policy requires that PayPal make a decision as to whether the transaction can be reversed, and at the core of that decision is, whether there is proof to the requisite degree that I completed the task required of me in clause 2.1, which is where Proof of Shipping comes in.

Now PayPal could have stipulated that the proof they require is proof it was sent to a specific address, as contained in Transaction Details Page and in fact when Seller Protection was first introduced, that’s exactly level of proof that was required.  However today, the same policy has been moderated to the extent that the evidentiary onus is satisfied if I provide proof it was sent to suburb, city or postcode in which the buyer resides.  That is, as far as PayPal is concerned, if the buyer resides at ### street Gosford, and the paperwork shows I sent it to Gosford, then for the purposes of Seller Protection this is sufficient to prove it was sent to the correct address.

Simply put, clause 2.1 tells me what I must do.  The definition of Proof of Shipping tells me what I must provide to prove that I did what PayPal told me I must do.  And if I have done both I am entitled to seller protection irrespective of whether the buyer agrees with the outcome or not.

[thecatspjs]

LOL TB

Of course  a policy can specify a number of different criteria and require different forms of evidence to meet each of its tests.

I am starting not to believe your claims. They are moving into the far fetched interpretation now.

[tall_bearded]

Yes but what it can’t do impose different tests which provide for a different outcomes in connection with the same thing.

That is I’m dealing with practical application, and the rules governing application say the two tests can’t result in a contradictory outcome, because if they do then one, or the other, or both tests are rendered void.

But the argument has become circular.  So in the absence of the ability to bring this matter before a judicial officer who will, having heard the argument, make a binding decision as to which argument they prefer, I guess it’s now time to leave it to those who read this thread to choose whose opinion they prefer.  

[jensmanchester-australia]

TB - Reading the policy regarding providing proof of shipment from what I can see it says that as well as having documentation showing the date it was sent at least one of three other conditions need to be fulfilled.

One of these is a receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient's suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent).

My understanding is that the Australia Post receipts from over the counter no longer have that information on them so therefore the seller would not have the proof required to satisfy Paypal if the parcel was sent as regular post.

The same would apply to prepaid satchels as there would be no receipt from Australia Post showing the information as required by Paypal.

[thecatspjs]

.

 That is I’m dealing with practical application, and the rules governing application say the two tests can’t result in a contradictory outcome, because if they do then one, or the other, or both tests are rendered void.

I think it is circular from your position only. You are imposing a different form of evidence than is acceptable.

IMO you need to meet eligibility requirements for protection before any test for proof of post is even applied.

I think the requirements are actually complementary, so much so if you use AP recommended methods of postage to meet paypal requirements, such as click and send, then you can fulfill both tests with the same documentation.

However, as you are trying to "fit" postcode proof as evidence proof of addressee, as well as have it for proof of shipment, then of course it becomes contradictory - because it can't meet the first test.

[amax-1]

What is proof of shipment?

For sellers, we require proof of shipment from you if a buyer files a chargeback or reversal for an unauthorised payment, or if the buyer claims the item wasn't received.

For buyers, if you file a claim for a 'significantly not-as-described' item, we may require you to ship the item back to the Seller. You will be required to show proof of shipment.

Buyers and sellers, at the very least, must provide documentation that includes the date the item was sent, plus one of:

An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status (status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable) The recipient's delivery address showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent) A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient's suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent)

Above is Paypal's definition of "proof of shipment" for item not received claims

TB's interpretation IMHO is correct, it clearly says a receipt from Auspost showing at least the receipient's suburb, city or postcode which is consistant with an Auspost till receipt (tax invoice)?

[thecatspjs]

proof of shipment is not in dispute.

proof of addressee is.

[amax-1]

For sellers, we require proof of shipment from you if a buyer files a chargeback or reversal for an unauthorised payment, or if the buyer claims the item wasn't received.

They don't require "proof of addressee" to defend and item not received case, they require "proof of shipment" which a definition is provided by Paypal for what is an accepted "proof of shipment".

Out of interest through, has anyone been denied seller protection on the minimum requirement of a dated receipt bearing only buyer's postcode without proof of postage to the buyer's full address as provided for in an official stamped Lodgement Receipt?

[dmh160161]

What is “proof of shipment” and what forms of “proof of shipment” does PayPal accept?  Examples of proof of shipment include the following:

A copy of the postage receipt that includes the eBay buyer's delivery address. You can get this from Australia Post's Registered Post and Australia Post's Registered Post International, or

For Australia Post eParcel customers, a copy of the consignment information page which shows buyer’s address and the online tracking code that can be used to confirm delivery, or

A postage code that PayPal can use online to view the postage status and the eBay buyer's delivery address. You can get this from TNT, DHL, FedEx, and other carriers, or

A receipt issued by the carrier that is signed by the recipient acknowledging delivery

 If you post your items to other countries PayPal Seller Protection applies to you as long as you sell items on an eBay site and your transaction meets the eligibility criteria.

Rules seem simple, proof is not a receipt with a postcode, must have buyers delivery address, which you do not get with standard post.

[thecatspjs]

Out of interest through, has anyone been denied seller protection on the minimum requirement of a dated receipt bearing only buyer's postcode without proof of postage to the buyer's full address as provided for in an official stamped Lodgement Receipt?

Yes, I have when I first starting ebaying and returned an item via registered post without using a completed lodgement form.

Post Office just issued me with receipt showing registered post tracking number and postcode of seller I was returning item to.  Paypal would not provide refund on the receipt basis, as whilst it showed postcode, it did not show address.

Needless to say that I have never made this error again, as a buyer or a seller.