Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

[queenslander-one]

I have today had a Paypal chargeback for an item said not recieved by Ebay/Paypal. Have advised the FOS as Paypal under Ebay's instruction have removed money from my account when I had Proof of Postage. (Photograph of item correctly addressed and Postmarked by my Postmaster. Waiting to hear the outcome.

Copy of my response to Ebay/Paypals removal of funds below.

Hi I sent the buyer a photo of the item posted at the Post office on the 5th Feb to his Paypal Address (Please see my Ebay emails sent) or can supply again to Ebay.

Also under Australian law item 101 of Australia post rules. 101 Articles carried by post to be taken to be Australia Post’s property.

Quote For the purpose of any legal proceeding or action in relation to an article carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the article shall be taken to be, while it is being carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the property of Australia Post.

In Australia, the seller is not legally responsible for delivery, only postage, therefore proof of postage is what is required Also under Paypal rules.

What is proof of shipment? • The date the item was sent; and

•An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status. (Status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable.) It must also include either: •The recipient’s delivery address, showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent); or •A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient’s suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent).

If money is removed by Ebay from my Paypal account over this correctly sent item I WILL be lodging a complaint with the Financial Services Ombudsman. Ebay if it wants to provide an insurance service for so called non delivered items can but not at my expense.

Will see how I fair

[babylonfuture]

$100 book.

Assuming following Postage options are available:

Standard Post - no tracking or has tracking (items with tracking still go missing).

Standard Post + Signature

Standard Post + Sig + Extra Cover

IF the item has those 3 as postage options and the BUYER selects the first one - then yes - if seller proves shipment, then the buyer is the one that wears the costs.

(If the buyer selects number 3, but seller sends via option 1, than the seller should wear the cost of any lost mail).

However..

IF there is no postage option (ie, only one option) - then the seller is responsible - as buyer has no choice over delivery options/methods. If get's lost or that - then yes - seller should be fully responsible.

I have sent parcels (WITH TRACKING) that have gone missing.. never scanned after leaving the sorting depo or even got carded to the wrong address (parcel was addressed corretly - postman delivered it to wrong address). So even with just 'tracking' there is no guarantee that it was or will be received.

Having said that. Signature and/or Sig + Extra Cover does not mean the receiptient will receive it either. As ANYONE at the intended address can sign for it.... Though with Extra Cover have a better chance of getting reimbursement if item goes missing (different matter if it gets signed for by someone).

So.. If someone else signs for it - and address details are correct - are you saying the seller is still responsible?

[queenslander-one]

My Point to a tee. If the Buyer Pays for registered signed for etc I offer that option. If they do not want any of the extra options at Their Cost  items are then sent at their risk with proof of postage supplied by me. Photo of Posted item correctly Stamped and addressed as per Paypal or if by Direct debit Ebay listed address is also sent for all items posted over the counter at my Post Office.

[davewil1964]

Don't give them the choice.

Joe, nobody would send a $100 book in an untrackable envelope, so your analogy, like most of your posts, is specious.

[rick2u]

hi queenslander, how do you get photographs of your posted item,  does your post office mind doing it?? obviously not, I think its a good idea, thanks and thanks for the info on the post rules too

[joethenuts]

HI  you say even with tracking parcels dont get there  but if the tracking states that the parcel has been delivered  then the buyer cant say to the seller i did not get it,,  

also if you paid for an article which includes delivery to your address you would expect it to come the seller sends the parcel out he can post it courier it give it to a friend that work in that suburb  or put it on a bus,

now if the courier or the post stuff it up then its up to the seller to follow up ,what do you think the buyer would do after the seller tells him in out of my hands the post office now owns it first he is going to contact ebay then he is going to give you a shocking feedback.

all i am saying to the queenslander is , if he wnts to keep his price down by sending articles in an envelope whith out tracing he has to except some might get lost bad luck or put a higher price on the postage .  we are talking about something for $8    i mean registered mail for an $8 article  please.

also you are forgeting that your auction house or what ever you want to call ebay policy states if you dont recieve your parcel you will get a refund   even though the queenslander got one as stated its a 1  off  

[joethenuts]

anyway mr queenslander   hay you sent the parcel you have proof   but thats not good enough for here 

ebay says money back to the buyer there is no tracking of them getting a parcel from you its lost in the system 

what do you think buyers are going to do if they dont get there parcel after they have paid for it

and were on your listings does it say the postage is not guarenteed to get there,and if you decided to give the parcel to one of your friends that live near the buyer  are you going to take a photo of you parcing the article to him ,mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[lyndal1838]

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@joethenuts wrote:

HI  you say even with tracking parcels dont get there  but if the tracking states that the parcel has been delivered  then the buyer cant say to the seller i did not get it,,  

---

You are wrong there my friend.

It is not unknown for the tracking to show a parcel has been delivered but the buyer has not received it.   I have had it happen to me twice.

On another occasion the tracking showed that my parcel had been delivered to an address in Victoria but I am in NSW and received it 6 days later.

Lots of things can go wrong with tracking....items can be delivered to wrong addresses, or left at the PO and no card left to advise the buyer where it is.

Not all buyers are liars....if they say a parcel has not been delivered it is not safe to assume that they are lying without some sort of information that they may be inclined to do so.

[joethenuts]

i am not disputing that parcels with tracking go missing  but there is a lot better chance of proving the article has arived than an ordinary letter 

look with this new policy from ebay sellers have to protect them selves as much as posible now 

there is going to be more problems with sending letters now     at least with tracking you will find the crook buyers not abuse this policy as much 

ps you are a sitting duck posting letters 

and to the queenslander posting and handling does not mean using a post office the order is not complete until the buyer recieves the article   and that is ebaqys policy also   you dont have to like it  but thats the rules on ebay.

all have a nice day

[queenslander-one]

My Postmaster postmarks the items I then photgraph the item being sent and then he takes them out the back of the Post Office with other items for dispatch. Takes a while sometimes but never let a queue form behind me just stand to one side until I can photograph the postmarked item without causing delays. Great postoffice and always most helpful. 

[joethenuts]

i think by what you do in photo the article is a brilliant way of some sort of protection    i dont know how the post offices would cope with all you guys doing it when you can all have lots of parcels  it could cause a problems  but at least you are trying to cover yourself.

look  myself my articles are mostly pick ups 99%   and a couple of arvos a week i am not in so a few items i leave at the front door to be picked up some pay and leave money unnder mat now over the years i must of had a few hundered of these and never has there been a problem with goods missing or money not there its genarly for small amounts of money maybe up to $30 , so thats taking a risk but until there is a problem i will keep doing it and if i get a problem i will have to cop the lost , i am over the years way ahead