Item said Not recieved Ebay/Paypal Charge Back

[queenslander-one]

I have today had a Paypal chargeback for an item said not recieved by Ebay/Paypal. Have advised the FOS as Paypal under Ebay's instruction have removed money from my account when I had Proof of Postage. (Photograph of item correctly addressed and Postmarked by my Postmaster. Waiting to hear the outcome.

Copy of my response to Ebay/Paypals removal of funds below.

Hi I sent the buyer a photo of the item posted at the Post office on the 5th Feb to his Paypal Address (Please see my Ebay emails sent) or can supply again to Ebay.

Also under Australian law item 101 of Australia post rules. 101 Articles carried by post to be taken to be Australia Post’s property.

Quote For the purpose of any legal proceeding or action in relation to an article carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the article shall be taken to be, while it is being carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the property of Australia Post.

In Australia, the seller is not legally responsible for delivery, only postage, therefore proof of postage is what is required Also under Paypal rules.

What is proof of shipment? • The date the item was sent; and

•An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status. (Status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable.) It must also include either: •The recipient’s delivery address, showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent); or •A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient’s suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent).

If money is removed by Ebay from my Paypal account over this correctly sent item I WILL be lodging a complaint with the Financial Services Ombudsman. Ebay if it wants to provide an insurance service for so called non delivered items can but not at my expense.

Will see how I fair

[antonios7529]

I posted the item for first time . buyer said did not receive it

I posted  the item for second time

now the buyer asked paypal for refund.

I FEEL SICK, OF IT. I STOPED SELLING ON EBAY AND I WILL NEVER SELL AGAIN ON EBAY.

[joethenuts]

ok could you when you come back answere  my question above  thanks  joe

[tall_bearded01]

There is no such thing as free postage.  Free postage means, the cost of delivery has been factored into the total product price for the item purchased.  As such, someone always pays and that someone always, in the end, is the buyer. Therefore whether deemed delivery applies to the transaction where the cost of delivery is included in the total price is pretty much irrelevant.

What is relevant is, where the cost of delivery in included in the cost of goods sold, and the buyer elects to pick it up, are they/should they be entitled to a reduced cost, but that is a different question than that which is under discussion here. 

That is because, though the listed price includes the cost of delivery, this doesn’t preclude the buyer from eliminating the risk inherent with delivery by carrier by going to where the item is located and picking it up, unless, as previoulsy stated, the listing specifically stipulates otherwise (Pickup Is Not Allow), in which case deemed delivery doesn’t applies.  

[joethenuts]

could you answere my question   on the seller selling his product at $10   I wrote   who is responsible for his lost parcel.

simple question,   i dont wont to know about pick ups  thanks   joe

[tall_bearded01]

What you have to get your head around is a buyers rights are determined by the relevant legislation and that legislation states, the place for/of delivery is the place where the goods are located at the time they were sold, UNLESS the contract specifically specifies otherwise. Therefore, unless the contract specifically states otherwise, the buyer has a right to attend at that place and take possession of what they now own.

Or to put it another way, the right to pickup is a right conferred by statute, and therefore that right exists irrespective whether the listing makes mention of it.

herefore the fact that listing doesn’t say “Pickup Allowed” is for the purposes of the topic under discussion, irrelevant.

[tall_bearded01]

The simple answer to your question is, when it comes to deemed delivery, whether the total amount paid can be dissected into separate elements (sale price plus delivery cost) or as a single element (total cost which includes any delivery charges)  the same rules apply to both.

If the listing is silent on pickup then deemed delivery applies and the buyers loses both the cost of the item and postage.  If the listing says “Pick Up Not Allowed” the seller will  ordinarily have reimburse the buyer both.

[joethenuts]

all i want is a simple should the buyer get a refund shoud it come from the sellers funds,

you keep going on about the buyer pick it up it could be in another state  and also the buyer does not have excess to the address of the seller in most cases, so he cant go to the place and pick it up 

[joethenuts]

ok lets make it easier   you buy a teatowel of me on ebay for $5.00 + $3.00 postage  total invoice you the bearded one will get is for $8.00  you then pay usally thru paypal , i the seller package your teatowel and send it thru aus post parcels or courier it what ever it states on your invoice , but you dont get your teatowel ,you cant dry your dishes ,i asume you contact the seller and say my dishes are wet weres my tea-towel and i say mate i sent it 2 weeks ago [the question who is at fault  do you loose your tea-towel and your money or what.  looking forward to your answere   thanks joe 

[davewil1964]

He's given you the anwer, numerous times.

Provided the seller can prove they handed it to the carrier, according to law the item has been delivered.

I think your misunderstanding is deliberate.

[tall_bearded01]

You seem not to be able to understand the basic principles involved.

The buyer controls the transaction. That is a seller can’t force a buyer to buy from them.  Instead the buyer chooses from whom they will buy, and when doing so they would/should look at the products available, weigh up their respective advantages/disadvantages, and then select the product that best suit their requirements.  However to do that they have to understand the respective rights and responsibilities of the parties to the contract, and here there is no black and white outcomes, only varying shades of grey.

For instance if I list something on eBay and is don’t stipulate in my listing “Pickup is Not Allowed”, this means should you purchase the item from me, you are entitled, by law, to demand from me the location of the place where the item is located, and entitled, by law, to go to that place, give me the money and demand I hand over the goods.   

Now if you still want to buy my product but find that you live too far away to collect it, you can ask me to arrange to have it delivered to you by carrier.  Furthermore, if in my listing I give details as carrier costs, this is an invitation by me to you that, if you want to buy my product and you live too far away to pick it up, I will arrange for it to be delivered to you.

You now need to make a decision.  Do you take up my offer to be your agent for the purposes of arranging delivery, or do you buy from another seller who allows pickup and is closer; and if the answer is I’ll get it delivered, then deemed delivery applies - if the item is lost or damaged in transit the buyer has no legal recourse against the seller. That is because it is you, the buyer, who chose to use a carrier, not me, the seller

On the other, hand if one listing allows pickup and another doesn't, all other things being equal, I would ordinarily buy from the seller whose listing stipulate “No Pickup” because, here it is the seller who stipulated a carrier must be used, and as such, they have changed the place of delivery from the place where the item was located when sold, to the place where buyer says it is to be delivered - and as such deemed delivery doesn’t apply

This is why “Pickup” is so important.  It is important because it is determinative as to whether deemed delivery applies, and whether deemed delivery applies determines who is at risk where the is lost or damaged when in the hands of the carrier, and a determination as to who is a risk decides whether the buyer is entitled to a refund.