buyer says item not received

[40andstillnaughty]

Hello..I recently posted a bunch of parcels on the same day..all domestic..some in boxes and some in added bags..about 7 in total..everyone got their parcel except for one person..I have only ever not received a parcel myself 3 times..all from overseas..maybe 1 domestic..Is it likely that only 1 parcel could be lost when I posted 7 at the one time..seems strange to me..there would be people who say they did not receive something just to get their money back..and we would never know because we cannot leave feedback about these buyers..

[sparkes9669]

"Buyer puts in a PayPal claim.

Because it was sent regular post, PayPal finds for the buyer.

Seller disputes the decision.

Once the decision is disputed, what PayPal decides it will accept as proof of postage becomes irrelevant.  Instead what is now relevant is what the judicial process says is proof sufficient to prove postage, and on the basis of the facts as provided, unless PayPal has proof the seller is lying and the onus is on PayPal to prove the seller is lying,  then the finding will almost certainly be it was posted and posted to the correct address.

Outcome PayPal’s decision is reversed."

Tall bearded I have a lot of respect for your opinion but I do have a question to clarify what I am understanding from your post here and in other threads.

The question is simply as a buyer am I protected if the item does not arrive due to it becoming lost in transit, misdelivered or any other number of failings due to Australia Post or other carriers?

Unless I have mistaken your statement in what you have posted to this thread, if a buyer needs to make an INR claim and the seller disputes that the item wasnt recieved the buyer wouldn't be covered. Isn't this dependant on the method of postage?

[mens_choice_ladies_lingerie]

I hear you tall_bearded, how ever i have a question specifically for you.

If i was to fill in my shipping address incorrectly, is it really the seller responsiblity to chase that up and make sure they are sending my item to the right address?

I think you can tell if a person is legitimate, i like that stat dec idea foxette.

possibly even offer them a replacment product rather than a refund, if they are trying to con you then it is possible(Depending on what you sell) that the buyer won't want two of the same item

[jensmanchester-australia]

The question is simply as a buyer am I protected if the item does not arrive due to it becoming lost in transit, misdelivered or any other number of failings due to Australia Post or other carriers?

Unless I have mistaken your statement in what you have posted to this thread, if a buyer needs to make an INR claim and the seller disputes that the item wasnt recieved the buyer wouldn't be covered. Isn't this dependant on the method of postage?

Some time ago Paypal changed their buyer protection policy to state that if a seller can provide proof of postage then a buyer may not be covered.

From Paypal:-

If the seller has provided valid Proof of Shipment in relation to an Item Not Received claim, you may not be eligible and we recommend that you obtain postage insurance to avoid misdirected postage.

So basically if the seller can prove postage to the address provided on the Paypal payment if Australia Post lose the parcel, misdeliver it, if it gets stolen after delivery etc the buyer may not be covered by Paypal.

Before the changes to the Paypal User Agreement Paypal would usually cover the buyer out of their own funds if the Seller was covered under the Seller Protection Policy but that has now changed.

Added to that Australia Post are, as a general rule, no longer paying out compensation for parcels which don't require a signature (with the exception of express post parcels which they still pay compensation for up to the value of $50.00 for the standard express post satchels).

This means, that unless a higher priced postage service is used, there really is no coverage for parcels which go missing.

[sparkes9669]

This means, that unless a higher priced postage service is used, there really is no coverage for parcels which go missing.

OMG :_| Until now I thought that paypal was a safe way to buy in case the item became lost in transit and I hoped that sellers will send items registered again to help ensure safe delivery.

AP insurance covers the sender and it is up to the sender to make the claim.

What method should I ask the seller to use on more expensive items?

[tall_bearded]

Sorry about the delay in providing a response.  Am retired and have been away for a few days wetting a line.

I think what people need to get their heads around is what PayPal buyer protection really is, and how things like registered post fits into the equation.

PayPal Buyer Protection is nothing more than and Recovery Advocacy Service.  That is, in itself it neither insures the transaction, nor does it provide protection in excess of what is conferred by the relevant consumer protection legislation (Fair Trading Act, Sale of Goods Act etc).

 In the context of an item which has to be delivered by a third party (a carrier) the respective rights and responsibilities are as follows.

Whilst the item is in the sellers possession they are responsible for its safekeeping and should anything happen to it, irrespective of whether it is the sellers fault, the seller musty compensate the buyer for that loss.  This is called “the risk” or “being at risk”

However, after the item has been handed over to the carrier, “the risk” or “being at risk passes from the seller to the buyer.  This means, if the item is lost or damaged after having been handed over to the carrier, the buyer has no right to be compensated for that loss, unless they arranged to have it insured, or if they decided not to insure, they can still be compensated, but if, and only if, they can prove the loss or damage was on account of the sellers’ or carriers’ negligence and the onus to prove the negligence is on the buyer, and this is where PayPal buyer protection comes into play.

As stated before PayPal Buyer Protection is a recovery advocacy service, with that advocacy service being limited to loss attributable to seller negligence.  That is, if the item is not be received, they will investigate the circumstances surrounding non-receipt, and if they believe the non-receipt is on account of seller negligence, they will recover the monies paid and give it back to the buyer.

Now, when PayPal Buyer Protection was first introduced seller negligence was simply deemed to be the most likely cause for every item lost. That is irrespective of any evidence to the contrary provided by the seller, the outcome was always the same; a finding that the seller was somehow negligent.  However as more and more sellers began to dispute these decisions PayPal was forced to progressively bring it’s dispute resolution procedures in line with the judicial expectations to the extent that today, not only will they now no longer attempt to recover if postage is proved, but also, whereas in the past they would only accept registered post as proof of postage, they will now accept a postal receipt which proves something was sent to the postcode area in which the buyer lives.

So where does registered post fit in.

You the buyer own the goods which are to be delivered, therefore you as the owner have the right to select the mode of delivery to be used, and the seller has a legal obligation to the buyer to comply with any instructions you give re its delivery.  

Now the buyers three main choices are, regular post (includes click and send), registered post or registered post person to person.

If you choose regular post, then you have chosen a delivery service which allows Aust Post to safe drop the item.  Therefore, if the seller has a post office receipt stating it was sent and the buyer says they didn’t receive it, and if Aust Post refuse to compensate on the basis that their records confirm it was delivered, and if PayPal then refuse to make a discretionary payment, the buyers only option is to take Aust Post to court, in which case it falls to the buyer to proved failed delivery was on account of Aust Post negligence (delivered to the wrong address), instead of the equally compelling alternative,  it was delivered to the correct address, but the buyer wasn’t home so it was safe dropped, and then someone come along and helped themselves to a five finger discount. 

Now if the buyer chooses registered post, what they are effectively doing is choosing a more secure mode of delivery in that the item has to be signed for; that is can’t be safe dropped.  Also, if something go wrong it is easier for the buyer to prove no receipt on account of negligence.  The same goes for person to person delivery.

My point is, as has already been pointed out, it is becoming easier for sellers to prove postage and harder for buyers to prove negligence and PayPal is becoming more and more reluctant to make discretionary payments.  Therefore the time has come for buyers to take personal responsibility for the safe delivery of the goods that they buy be it by paying for a more secure delivery option, or providing a secure place where the item can be safe dropped. 

[sparkes9669]

Thank you for the detailed post Tall bearded and wise one.

My only remaining question is regarding the insurance side of it. 

My understanding is that it is the seller that is required to make the claim for the benifit of the buyer. And if the claim is payed the seller should forward on the compensation paid.

Is this understanding correct? Or can the buyer initiate the claim process?

May need Alice from AP to post a response also.

thank you again for your time and detailed response.

[knewdoors]

scammers are everywhere in this system unless you take photos of your package or envelope you send. pic of contents etc etc....people will SCAM you all the time..seriously thinking of leaving ebay it sux..the sellers are treated very badly by the scammers who get away with basic ROBBERY!

[tall_bearded]

In connection with goods not received, there are two kinds of claims which can be made against Aust Post.  You can make a ‘discretionary claim’ or you can make a legal claim, but you must make a discretionary claim before you make a legal one.

A discretionary claim is where the claimant goes to Aust Post and says ‘something was sent but it wasn’t received, so what are you going to do about it’.  Now these are called discretionary claims because, both the method in which the claim is made and whether liability is accepted is at the discretion of Aust Post, and for the purposes of administrating this claims process, when it comes to lost item, Aust Post requires that is it the sender who initiates the process, if for no other reason than they have all the relevant documentation.  That is the discretionary claims process is not being driven by who is entitled to the compensation.  It is being driven by what makes the process easier for Aust Post.

Now the question which immediately arises is, if it is the buyer who owns the goods and therefore is entitled to the compensation, but Aust Post require that the seller complete the paperwork, is there a legal obligation on the seller to lodge the claim on the buyer’s behalf, and if the claim is accepted, pass on the compensation to the buyer, and in both cases the answer is an emphatic YES.  Section 32(2) Sales of Goods Act which states “Unless otherwise authorised by the buyer, the seller must make such contract with the carrier on behalf of the buyer as may be reasonable”.

So, if having lodged the paperwork, and should AP decide to accept liability, how does the seller pass on the compensation to the buyer.  This can be done in one of two ways.  They can, at the time of lodging the paperwork advise Aust Post to pay the compensation direct to the buyer, or they can accept the payment on behalf of the buyer, and then pass it on to the buyer.

Now here’s the important bit.  If Aust Post decide to reject liability, this is not the end of the matter unless the buyer decides not to push the matter further, and if the buyer does decide to push it further, then they have two options open to them.  They can lodge a complaint with the ombudsman or bring an action in the small claims court.  However before initiating such an action buyers need to be mindful that the onus will be squarely on them to prove, firstly it wasn’t delivered, and secondly if it was delivered, non-receipt was because of negligence by Aust Post or its contractor.

You see the mere fact you didn’t receive it doesn’t mean it wasn’t delivered.  For instance, if the buyer pays for regular post then delivery is completed when the item is safe dropped.  Therefore if it is not there when you get home, then the reason you didn’t receive it may not be because of the negligence of the Aust Post or its contractor, but because the buyer failed to provide a secure area in which it could be safe dropped.  But hang on, what if a secure cite was provided.  Then the fact that it wasn’t in the secure area provided, may well provide sufficient doubt as to whether it was delivered to the correct address, or it was delivered to the correct address, it is proof it was not put into the secure storage provided, and both and the doubt and the proof may be sufficient for a finding that failed receipt was due to carrier negligence.

The point is every case will be decided on its own facts.  However the more precautions the buyer takes to secure their purchase at the point of delivery, (use registered post so item can’t be safe dropped, have a safe drop box installed etc) the more likely they are to get compensated if something goes wrong.

[sparkes9669]

Thank you Tall bearded.

[genesis3037]

(I can't even work this out forum discussion thing out....here I try again.)

Thank you Tall Beard, been searching forum for some kind of answer. 

Have my 1st 'item did not arrive' from buyer. I am just an occasional ebayer, doing a bit of buying and selling - getting rid of items i no longer need. Sold this $5 item, interstate standard parcel post cost $15. This matter add on to my stress that I don't need, out of goodwill, I am willing to refund the $5 but feel I am not responsible for the postage. 'Leave at door if not at home' forms part of buyer's address.- of course - she mention she never had any problem before. I too never had any problem before with AP until now. When buying, my parcels had taken longer than expected (from overseas) but it eventually arrive. 

She mention she'll have to get a refund off me. She paid by paypal.  What happens now? How can I have this resolve peacefully