Here's an 'interesting' Paypal experience.

[007homevideo]

I vendor in Canada recently accepted my 'best price' offer of US$300 for an item listed for US$500 'Buy It Now (or make offer)'.

The vendor sends me an invoice for the item and states shipping as US$150.

I visit the 'Canada Post' website and, using the online 'postage calculator', I find that the package should only cost approx. US$72 to ship via the method which the vendor quoted. This means that the vendor has added approx. US$78 to the shipping.

I wrote to the vendor to suggest revision of the shipping component. The vendor responded by saying that the extra amount was to cover the Ebay & Paypal fees associated with the sale of the item. I then protested and requested that the vendor cancel the transaction. The vendor refused.

In order to avoid a 'non-paying bidder' strike, I paid the invoice with a view to lodging a Paypal claim for a partial refund of the shipping component that was in excess of the ACTUAL shipping cost.

The package arrived today, in a home-made cardboard box, with a shipping label reflecting the US$72 shipping cost.

I logged into Paypal and lodged a claim for the excess amount above the ACTUAL shipping.

Within a half-hour of lodging the claim, I received notification from Paypal stating that they had completed their review of my case and were unable to decide the case in my favour - without offering further explanation of course.

Despite 'excessive shipping' being one of the issues which Paypal deem as being grounds for a claim, and despite being able to provide a scan of the shipping label (on request), my claim was adjudicated to be - in the space of a half-hour maximum - untenable.

The question at the forefront of this outcome is this: if provable application of excessive shipping is insufficient to reasonably demonstrate 'excessive shipping', what then DOES prove it?

Helpful replies are most welcome.

[maranock]

Sorry but you paid for it knowing the shipping cost, so of course Ebay found in the sellers favour. There were other avenues you could have taken.

[phorum_junkie*]

Although the seller should not have owned up to the extra being for fees they are allowed to charge you anything they like unless they quote shipping to your location or agree a price through ebay messages before the end of the listing. Once you have purchased you have agreed to pay what the seller charges. Neither ebay nor Paypal will get involved once you have paid and received your item. I hope you didn't expect the seller to only charge the cost of the package and not add a packaging and handling fee to cover their time and materials for packaging the item??

If you did not want to pay what you considered excessive postage you should have refused to pay and thyen if you got an unpaid item strike you could have appealed it on the grounds that the seller charged excessive postage and admitted it was to cover fees etc.

[lyndal1838]

The listing states that the seller may not ship to Australia and to contact him to ask for a quote.

Did you ask for a quote before committing to buy?

If you did not have a definite quote before buying then you are at the seller's mercy...he can charge what he wants to charge.

I would say that you would not have been able to buy at such a low price if the seller had not been able to make a bit more on the postage.

There is nothing you can do now.

[007homevideo]

The question, again, is:

"if provable application of excessive shipping is insufficient to reasonably demonstrate 'excessive shipping', what then DOES prove it?"

Cheers.

[lyndal1838]

You will have to ask paypal what they require to prove it is excessive.   Obviously they do not consider that you have done so.

[digital*ghost]

---

@aubeatlesvinyl wrote:

The question, again, is:

"if provable application of excessive shipping is insufficient to reasonably demonstrate 'excessive shipping', what then DOES prove it?"

Cheers.

---

I'm afraid it doesn't actually matter that you can prove the seller charged a significantly higher P&H cost than actual stamp price, because despite the fact that you can select 'excessive shipping' as a reason for opening a dispute, it is not covered by PayPal buyer protection.

In a nutshell, PayPal won't deal in partials, with them it is all or nothing. When the dispute is opened, the seller has the option to select from a list of responses, one of them being to voluntarily refund the amount requested. If they do not do so voluntarily, there's nothing more you can do.

One of the reasons for that is because PayPal can't (or at the very least, won't) make a judgement call on subjective issues, and even though anyone could see that the extra charged seems over the top, escalating the request is asking PayPal to make an objective judgement on what is, or isn't, excessive, and amongst other things they can't do that because they have no right to determine independently what a seller's costs, above and beyond postage paid, are or were. 

Where PayPal is concerned, it is much the same as if someone opened a dispute because they paid $250 for an item, but when they receive it the seller has left the original price sticker on it of a mere $20 or something. 

eBay does have a policy re: excessive shipping charges, so you may be able to report them to eBay for that, but - and not that I support or condone postage piracy - I suspect that little to nothing will be done about it, and certainly not anything that will force a refund from the seller. Ever since eBay started charging FVF on postage costs, they pretty much stopped caring about what a seller charges. 

[harley_babes_hoard]

you shouldn't have purchased knowing the price. Once you agree to purchase you agree to the postage as well. I don't know why you thought you were then going to try and claim excessive post after you agreed to it.

Boy oh boy I pity the seller.

[007homevideo]

The reason that I "...thought (I was) going to try and claim excessive post after (I) agreed to it" was because this same type of situation occurred only a few months ago and I was indeed successful in a claim of 'excessive shipping'.

I have since been in communication with 'Paypal' and was not successful in claiming a refund amounting to the excess.

The most important aspect of Paypal's adjudication - one which has significant implication for all buyers - is the actual reason, specifically detailed by Paypal, for denying my claim which is this:

Unfortunately, PayPal was not able to resolve the dispute between the two parties due to the item purchased being intangible- SHIPPING COST. Shipping costs are considered an intangible item, and as your payment was entirely for shipping costs, we are unable to offer a resolution to your complaint.

Interestingly - and despite there being a clear differentiation being made in my claim between the cost of the item itself and the shipping component (as itemised on the original invoice), Paypal appear to have merged the two into one (hence the comment, "...as your payment was entirely for shipping costs..."); and by doing so absolve themselves of honouring the 'excessive shipping' clause of  'Buyer Protection'.

My payment was not 'entirely for shipping costs' - it was US$300 for the item + US$150 shipping (i.e. 'shipping' being a separately itemised component of the invoice).

I realise that it's easy for readers of this thread to take the high moral ground but as I have repeatedly asked, how, exactly, can one make a claim for 'excessive shipping' PRIOR to paying the invoice? One can't actually make a claim for 'excessive shipping' unless payment has first been made. And if one then cannot make such a claim following purchase, why is 'excessive shipping' even listed as a basis for claim under 'Buyer Protection'?

So, for the benefit of all ebay buyers, be aware that Paypal deems the shipping component of a transaction to be intangible and therefore not subject to claim. This is actually contrary to the statement on their 'buyer protection' claim-process page which clearly itemises 'excessive shipping' as a legitimate foundation for a claim.

Cheers.

[lyndal1838]

The meaning of excessive shipping as in the paypal dispute is when a seller charges for one method of shipping and then sends by a substantially cheaper method.

For example, on overseas seller charges for Priority International with tracking and insurance which is very expensive and then sends by First Class Airmail.