Purchase of caravan

[jaksensmummy]

I bid on a caravan and won. I rung the seller immediately to organise that I would be there to pick up item in a fortnight. There were no terms of the sale on eBay. The seller demanded a deposit to secure my purchase and I paid $500. In the description the caravan is REGISTERED UNTIL MARCH. I took my husband and father to view the caravan as we live just over an hour away. My husband and father took a look under the van and there is significant structural damage that is not mentioned in the description. The chassis is completely bent. In fact, from an engineer's point of view the whole structure would need to be rebuilt.

If I were to drive the van out of the driveway the police would put it off the road simply because it is unroadworthy. Therefore the caravan is not technically registered.

I had to ring the seller and tell him that I cannot purchase the van simply because of the unlisted damaged and the costs associated with restoring the van which was far more significant than described. The seller was incredibly rude and refuses to refund my deposit simply saying that he wrote "bidding is buying" on the bottom of his description. It's strange that he didn't respect that notion when I rang him to organise the logistics of picking up the van. Bidding obviously wasnt buying because he required money (and a substantial deposit I would say) to secure my purchase.

Now I am forced to take civil action in order to get my "deposit back" because he requested bank deposit. 😞

As a mother with a young family and a hearing impaired daughter on the Autism spectrum, we didn't have a lot of money to spend and the description was deceitful. I feel very flat!

[*crikey*mate*]

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@cq_tech wrote:
Where's one of those grubby little 14yo arsonists when you need them? Hypothetically, If said caravan mysteriously burned to the ground prior to the completion of the contract, then the contract would immediately become null and void and the seller would have no option but to return the OP's $500 holding deposit.

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LOLOL

now there's a reason for sellers not to be too specific of their whereabouts in their listings for Pick Up Only listings!

But, the fire doesn't void the contract, however the seller's then probable non performance of the contract would mean he would be in breach of contract, for which the buyer could sue) and probably be forced to return any monies already paid (ie the court cancels the contract) - or maybe even supply another caravan if the judge decided to keep the contract on foot! (unlikely in this case, but it has happened)

QUESTION

when the contract on a house is finalized, you have to insure it even though you don't have possession of it yet... IF the caravan burned down prior to it being collected, who is responsible for it's loss? Which party should have insured it iykwim The person who has ownership or the person in possession?

I'm also thinking of when I buy a car - I only start my insurance from the day I actually collect it, not from the day I form the contract - it never occurred to me what would happen if something happened before then?

I'm thinking (after being forced to study the intricacies of Bailment by CatsPJ) that the seller is obliged to keep the item safe until collected, but does this apply here?

[*crikey*mate*]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

Bank deposit slip of $500 to account in sellers name - or as I do, print out transaction details of electronic transfer at the time - plus ebay record of sale = quite easy to substantiate payment was not a gift.  

Its not hard to substantiate purpose of a bank deposit payment, its done regularly for tax purposes. I actually don't know why you are saying that ... its a bit of devils advocacy I suspect, which is JMO so no need to fret.

This is not even including any ebay messages between seller and buyer, nor any future messages between seller and buyer. 

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that's on my list to ask, as not mentioned, I hope she has some of those receipts - just makes stuff easier for her to link if she does.

ATM, there is no indication that the buyer has any of this.

by "gift" I mean (although I have no idea to what post you refer) there is no proof of what the payment was for i.e. that it was specifically for the deposit of the caravan. If there is no prrof and the seller wanted to be a horror, he could say it was for anything, even payment for agreeing to store the van for an additional 6 days iykwim, so the cost price PLUS an additional $500 iykwim

it's just on my list of things for the seller to try and get all together sooner rather than later, if she is going to pursu this cos it will all help, and the more prepared she is the better.

[thecatspjs]

Yes ensuring that they retain a bank deposit receipt or bank transfer record, will save having to take further action down the track to prove their payment was made if it gets to that point, however I am not sure that the what-ifs and maybe wild scenarios are truly helpful to the OP in an already tricky situation.

[thecatspjs]

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@my*mum wrote:

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@cq_tech wrote:
Where's one of those grubby little 14yo arsonists when you need them? Hypothetically, If said caravan mysteriously burned to the ground prior to the completion of the contract, then the contract would immediately become null and void and the seller would have no option but to return the OP's $500 holding deposit.

---

LOLOL

now there's a reason for sellers not to be too specific of their whereabouts in their listings for Pick Up Only listings!

But, the fire doesn't void the contract, however the seller's then probable non performance of the contract would mean he would be in breach of contract, for which the buyer could sue) and probably be forced to return any monies already paid (ie the court cancels the contract) - or maybe even supply another caravan if the judge decided to keep the contract on foot! (unlikely in this case, but it has happened)

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That is not necessarily the case.  A fire may void the contract.  For instance under the Sale of Goods Act Vic:

12. Goods perished after agreement to sell? Where there is an agreement to sell specific goods, and subsequently the goods without any fault on the part of the seller or buyer perish before the risk passes to the buyer, the agreement is thereby avoided.

[thecatspjs]

Lol - should read voided,  typo copied from Vic Government legislation webpage .

[cq_tech]

It seems to me that it's either a very brave or a very stupid person who rips-off $500 from somebody who knows exactly where they live, and may ultimately decide to turn up at some time in the future for a friendly, social visit, along with a carload of their big, hairy bikie mates.

[cq_tech]

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@my*mum wrote:

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@cq_tech wrote:
Where's one of those grubby little 14yo arsonists when you need them? Hypothetically, If said caravan mysteriously burned to the ground prior to the completion of the contract, then the contract would immediately become null and void and the seller would have no option but to return the OP's $500 holding deposit.

---

QUESTION

when the contract on a house is finalized, you have to insure it even though you don't have possession of it yet... IF the caravan burned down prior to it being collected, who is responsible for it's loss? Which party should have insured it iykwim The person who has ownership or the person in possession?

I'm also thinking of when I buy a car - I only start my insurance from the day I actually collect it, not from the day I form the contract - it never occurred to me what would happen if something happened before then?

I'm thinking (after being forced to study the intricacies of Bailment by CatsPJ) that the seller is obliged to keep the item safe until collected, but does this apply here?

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It's been 28 years since I bought my house, but I can distinctly remember at the time that the insurance was the vendor's responsibility only until the contract had been signed and witnessed, at which point the risk transferred to me and I had to take out household insurance immediately. I'd be very surprised if this still wasn't the case when it comes to houses.

If you sign a contract to buy a car, with delivery to be effected on a specific date, the dealer is responsible for the vehicle until said date arrives, at which point you need to organise comprehensive insurance before you drive away from the dealer's yard, as the moment you jump into your new car, the dealer's insurance responsibility ends at that point.

[*crikey*mate*]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

Yes ensuring that they retain a bank deposit receipt or bank transfer record, will save having to take further action down the track to prove their payment was made if it gets to that point, however I am not sure that the what-ifs and maybe wild scenarios are truly helpful to the OP in an already tricky situation.

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Right Now, "what ifs" are very important

For example

I hope that the OP has taken a proper copy of the listing, the pictures and all communication between herself and the seller.

As we know, the pictures can go any time the seller chooses to delete them, and the listing becomes unaccessible in 60 (or is it 90 ? days)

And it is very easy to accidentally delete the wrong message.

So, the considerations for "what ifs" are extremely important, otherwise you end up with the same situation with the lady with the broken car.

Might not be necessary this moment, but.......

AND, you don't think it kinda important that the buyer get some kind of receipt soonish? The longer this drags out the less compliant the seller is likely to be and the harder it will be to get anything that amounts to proof.

DID you read the thread about the broken car?

sort of makes your reference to "wild scenarios" kinda ummm shall we say defunct?

[colic2bullsgirlore]

Legally the owner of the caravan will be stated on the rego papers....ie the seller unless it is encumbered then the owner will be the seller and their finance company

You can argue till you are blue in the face and provide or keep whatever bank deposit slips you would like.

The fact remains that regardless of the condition of the caravan whether it is registered,towable or a write off the $500 can only be

linked to the van via (at best) a verbal agreement.... not a contract .....an agreement.

If the buyer had secured a receipt signed by the seller that stated the $500 is part payment for caravan chassis number xxxxx rego

number XXXX registered till this date in this state in the name of XXX signed by the registered owner and then reneged and

ultimately wanted their money back they would still be in chitters ditch dependant on what was written on the receipt. ie stipulating

whether the sum was a returnable or non returnable deposit.

Even if the seller wrote returnable and then refused to return it the buyer would need to take civil action.. and be riding on a wing and a prayer

BTW I personally think it stinks that the seller did not at least return the deposit less the original listing fee.

I would have offered/asked appealed to the seller that "because of my extreme error and poor judgement" guffaw grovel guffaw BS, BS, BS, that out of the kindness of their (black) heart could they se their way clear to keep the listing fee and FVF from the $500 but return the rest of the moolah to me............. maybe....

[*crikey*mate*]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@my*mum wrote:

---

@cq_tech wrote:
Where's one of those grubby little 14yo arsonists when you need them? Hypothetically, If said caravan mysteriously burned to the ground prior to the completion of the contract, then the contract would immediately become null and void and the seller would have no option but to return the OP's $500 holding deposit.

---

LOLOL

now there's a reason for sellers not to be too specific of their whereabouts in their listings for Pick Up Only listings!

But, the fire doesn't void the contract, however the seller's then probable non performance of the contract would mean he would be in breach of contract, for which the buyer could sue) and probably be forced to return any monies already paid (ie the court cancels the contract) - or maybe even supply another caravan if the judge decided to keep the contract on foot! (unlikely in this case, but it has happened)

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That is not necessarily the case.  A fire may void the contract.  For instance under the Sale of Goods Act Vic:

12. Goods perished after agreement to sell? Where there is an agreement to sell specific goods, and subsequently the goods without any fault on the part of the seller or buyer perish before the risk passes to the buyer, the agreement is thereby avoided.

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Who determines that the contract is void?

How is the contract declared void?

Who determines that there was no fault on the part of the seller or buyer?

So, perhaps reread what I actually did say, eh?