Seller took too long to post, items now no good

[truckiewoman01]

Just wondering what my rights are.

I purchased 2 dresses from a seller on 26th October for a cruise that I was going on on 12th November. Seller listing says that she posts "within 3 days". I paid immediately with paypal. After 3 days with no notifications,(this was on Wednesday) I contacted seller to check telling her of my time limit.

She replied with I will post by the weekend. Still no notications so on Sunday I contacted seller again, reminding her of the time limit.

Her reply was I have been bust with work, I will post Monday.

No notifications on Monday so I contacted again - her excuse this time, my car has broken down, I should get it back Wednesday and will post then. I told her that this was no good that it wouldnt arrive in time (Melbourne to Perth) and lodged a paypal claim for a refund.

She responded to the claim on Wednesday saying that she had posted item, but when you check tracking, it says received by AP sorting centre 21:54pm Thursday so she probably just stuck it in a postbox whenever.

AP says that I wont receive the parcel until "between Thurs 13th and Mon 17th too late for me to use on the cruise.

I have had to go out and buy 2 new dresses to use instead. Do I have to just accept the fact that she posted 'a minimum' of 10 days after sale date or will paypal refund me.

Thanks for your thoughts

[modestbods]

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@truckiewoman01 wrote:

Thanks again. I never realised that they were open late, I rang them and by the miracles of modern technology, I got through nearly straight away - (only a 5 min wait).

Spoke to a consultant Jeff who told me that if I "return to sender" and they can see that the sender has received the goods back, then paypal will refund. I asked for that in writing but he told me that they dont do that but he would put a note on my account to that effect.

I will check with the post office to make sure that the tracking will show this, and have my house sitter do it when it rocks up (i will get him to note when it arrivers too)

Thanks so much for your help.

Another win for the little guy (or gal)

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That's great news OP.

Annoying he won't put it in writing though, but that is par for the course for most big businesses these days, they like to promise things but refuse to 'shake on it'... which means their promises aren't worth the paper they've not been written on.

Okay, I've done some digging for you, and here's what I've worked out.

If it arrives requiring a signature on delivery, if you sign for it it's yours and you will have to pay full postage to return it. If you refuse to sign for it & instruct Aus Post to return it to sender you must be sure it can be tracked back to them (whilst I suspect the same tracking will track it back to the seller, and Paypal should thus be able to check on it, you absolutely need to check that with AP as you said you will). If the tracking issue checks out with AP & you refuse it, make sure you get the sellers address from Paypal (and only from Paypal) so that you can give it to Aus Post for in the event the seller didn't write a return address on it. You need to do all you can to ensure it gets back to the seller.

If it arrives normal parcel post without signature on delivery, do not open it no matter what, if you open it it's yours. If it's unpoened you should be able to return it by taking it to your local post office and marking it 'return to sender', again make sure you have the sellers address from Paypal so that you can write it on the reverse of the package if it's not already there. The problem will be whether or not the original tracking will still track it if it's returned to sender after already being scanned as delivered, but as you said you will be checking that with AP. If they say it won't track with that number any longer, ask them if on a 'return to sender' parcel it's possible for you to pay the $2.95 to add signature on delivery to it so as to use that tracking for it (if yes, make sure they can & do include the sellers postcode on the receipt, this is very very very important to be able to prove to paypal it was sent back to the seller's address).

I've checked the Aus Post terms & conditions regarding refused deliveries/return to sender and it contains the following;

25 Refused articles

25.1 Where in the reasonable opinion of Australia Post an addressee has declined to
accept delivery of an article or where an article has been placed in a box or bag in
which the addressee usually receives articles and is subsequently returned to
Australia Post endorsed with an indication that the addressee has declined to accept
delivery of the article, the article shall be deemed to be refused by its addressee.

26 Method of dealing with unclaimed etc. articles

26.1 Subject to clauses 26.3 and 28, where an article is unclaimed, refused by, or
undeliverable to, its addressee, the article shall:
26.1.1 if it has a return address be delivered to that address;
26.1.2 if it has no return address and it has been opened pursuant to the Act; and
(i) if, in the reasonable opinion of Australia Post, the correct address of the
addressee of the article has been ascertained – be delivered to that
address; or
(ii) if the correct address of the addressee has not been so ascertained, but
the address of the sender has been ascertained – be returned to the
sender; and
26.1.3 in any other case - be treated as an undeliverable article and dealt with in
accordance with clause 27.

26.2 Where delivery of an article is attempted pursuant to clause 26.1 and the article is
unclaimed or refused by, or undeliverable to, the person to whom it is so directed, it
shall be treated as an undeliverable article and dealt with in accordance with clause
27

26.3 Where a parcel post article, an express post container or an express post parcel is
returned to its sender pursuant to this clause and its return entails its carriage from
the office at which it was held for delivery to another office, postage is payable on
that carriage as if it were an original carriage between the office at which it was held
for delivery and the return address of the sender.

To check them yourself go to the link below (there's been problems with providing Aus Post links on this forum, so join the following pieces together);

http://  <<>>  auspost.  <<>>  com.au/media/documents/AP-TCs-Sep-2014.  <<>>  pdf

Finally, not only let your house sitter know what to do, but make sure you give your neighbours a heads-up so they know not to sign for it in the event the house sitter is out when it arrives. Unfortunately I've learned from experience that Aus Post drivers have a bad habit of getting anyone in the vicinity (especially neighbours) to sign for a package without your providing them authority to do so, even when it's suppose to require only your signature on delivery. Remember, once it's signed for (by anyone) it's yours.

Also, make sure you have provided your house-sitter a valid letter/means of authority to enable them to deal with the parcel on your behalf, check with AP as to what you will need to give them to do this.

Good luck, & keep us updated.

[modestbods]

Grrr i hate the time limit on editing.

 I was trying to add...

 Assuming the tracking isn't an issue & you're good to go with 'return to sender', if the parcel is carded and left at your local post office awaiting collection, when you/house-sitter go in do not sign for it, if you do it's yours & you own it. Just tell them you refuse to accept it & it needs to go back 'return to sender', & have the sellers address to give to AP for if it's not already on the parcel.

 Hopefully you have a nice & understanding Aus Post person at your local post office who you can explain what's going on to & who are willing to help sort it out when it turns up.

[lyndal1838]

If you want to "Return to Sender" it has to go back to the address on the parcel...that is the sender by AP's definition, not to some address given to you by paypal.

If you want to send it to the paypal address and it is not the address on the parcel you will have to accept it and pay the postage and tracking yourself.

[modestbods]

Agreed. Thanks Lyndal I failed to mention that. I had only meant for the OP to have the sellers address obtained from Paypal (but only from Paypal) ready for if there was no return address at all on it. Ofc AP won't send it to a different one than what's on it already.

The OP should check with Paypal as to what to do in the event the two addresses were different.

[carly050206]

I am the seller and here are the REAL facts:
Reply to your message below;
1.if you read the description about the postage description is:
WILL USUALLY SEND IN 3 BUSINESS DAYS OF RECEIVING CLEARED PAYMENT. Nb: cannot post when post office is closed. Shipping services are always calculated by business days. 
If you want to get technical ebays postage for domestic for 3kg satchel is shipping is 2-6 BUSINESS days. So technically i have posted on the 6th business day. 
Ebay describes handling time: to ensure accurate delivery estimates. Delivery times are only an estimate.
If you look at ebay shipping service 
2.i have not lied that is a very bad word i was just unable to get to a post office but i kept in contact with you via ebay messages when i was unable to get to the post office. 
-Firstly within 48 hours after the sale ended (sale ended 26/10/14 @ 8.28pm. Message sent to you on Tuesday 28/10/14) that read:" hi i will send this to you by the weekend. I hope that’s OK" there was no reply from this message to advice you weren’t happy. At this stage you could of canceled the order and i would of happily accepted and refunded your money.
- unfortunately by Friday 31st October i had worked 13 days in a row 10-12 hour days (starting at 7.30am and finishing 5.30pm plus) when the post offices are open therefore i was unable to get to the post office in these times. I do not have a job where i can leave site during the day. 
On this day you messaged me "hi i brought this and another dress from you on 26/9 (NB was actually 26/10) in the listing you said that you post within 3 days. Then you email saying that you would send by the weekend. Now it is the end of the week and i still have not heard from you when my dresses will be posted. I am concerned as i am going on a cruise on 12/11 and had wanted them for then. Please advise" this is the exact message word by word not once did you mention requesting a refund
-on Saturday 1st November, my day off and had planned to go to the post office, unfortunately as i got in my car that morning My alternator died in my car,  leaving me with no car until i could take it to the mechanics on the Monday 3rd November. I had no other way of getting to the shops that day by their closing time at midday. I then messaged you that day "i am very sorry i will post them on Monday" i didmt think i needed to explain my personal problems with you. No response from you at which chance you could of again cancelled the order and i would of happily accepted and refunded your money.
- as soon as i heard from my mechanic on Monday 3rd November that my car wont be ready until Wednesday (Tuesday 4th November in Melbourne is a public holiday i messaged you to say sorry that i hadn’t had a chance to post the items as i have been working long hours and my car alternator died in my car. In the message i said i should get my car back on Wednesday.  So i kept you up to date all the time. 
- Wednesday 5th November i got my car back and went straight to the post office to buy the postage bags. I went home to find an email from you that "its not good enough" (i have kept your messages if you want to see them) but in this message again you didn’t mention about a refund. I took the postage bag to my local post box by 6pm THAT night. 
-You stated in your message today (Friday 7th November) Australia Post has stated not received until 21:51 Thursday 5th November. Please note November 5th IS WEDNESDAY. The day i said i posted it. 
Looking on the tracking information Australia post states 'processed through Australia post facility" on Thursday 6th November at 21:51 at sunshine.  Please note that I do not live anywhere near sunshine so its not my fault that when a parcel is posted it is then taken to a facility 94kms from my place. Please look at the facts and not jump to accusing me of lining. 
- in your message today you wrote "your stuff up you should have just refunded my money as i asked" as stated above NOT ONCE DID YOU ASK FOR A REFUND. I have kept all our correspondence and reread them.

I have No problems with any other sales and it upsets me that you have taken this sale this far. 

I would of been more then happy to refund you the payments for both dresses if requested prior to items being posted, however not once did you ask for a refund. Only in your email today AFTER parcel has been posted and you have checked the Australia post tracking information. 
As the items were posted as advised to you in writing and at no time did you request for the sale to be cancelled or monies refunded, i will not refund the monies now as the dresses were posted and you have the tracking information.

My last reply and this reply is not an attitude as you mentioned it is just facts as i felt as i have had to list the facts of this transaction as i feel my name is being accursed of awful things like lying when all i have been is upfront and honest. (if i was Iying to you i would not have messaged you so often.) and in Paypal dispute you wrote that i had no intention of sending the items. This is very hurtful and again not true as i kept in contact with you reguarling in the 10 days of the transaction (4 messages sent to you in 10 days)

I got an email from buyer today:
As previously discussed with you, due to your extremely late postage of my items, they have not arrived in time for my leaving on my holiday. You posted them only AFTER a paypal claim was lodged requesting a refund. Paypal have advised me that my house sitter can now "return to sender" your items when they arrive and paypal will refund me in full."

Unfortunately for buyer i called paypal today and they DO NOT GIVE HER PERMISSION to return the items . Just because the items didnt arrive before a particular day you cannot refuse delievery only if item is not as described etc. aswell these comments on ebay community will not help her case as it clearly shows she just isnt happy the items didnt arrive by a certain event. I have received items after a particular event and just accepted thats the chance you take buying things from ebay.
Obviously she is just bitter but it has now cost me $47 and 2x dresses.

Please dont put my name down just because you are unhappy. Its not fair to give me a bad name especically with false information, when i have communicated with you from the beginning.

[carly050206]

Please read the facts below. I am very honest and coming accross this discussion has really upset me. And your comments arent fair but you could only comment on buyers word not the facts.

[black*poppy]

It does seem that you have had some personal problems that prevented you from getting to the post office on time, and delaying postage by a few days.

Whatever the facts about whether the buyer asked for a refund or not, when she did tell you that she needed them for a certain date as she was going away.... not that it's technically your problem..... why didn't you shell out an extra couple of bucks for express post.  Would have been a nice way to apologise for the delay, and the buyer would have been happy getting her dresses on time.  

I suspect that she didn't ask for a refund earlier as she was still hoping to get them... because she wanted them.

[digital*ghost]

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@carly050206 wrote:

1.if you read the description about the postage description is:
WILL USUALLY SEND IN 3 BUSINESS DAYS OF RECEIVING CLEARED PAYMENT. Nb: cannot post when post office is closed. Shipping services are always calculated by business days. 
If you want to get technical ebays postage for domestic for 3kg satchel is shipping is 2-6 BUSINESS days. So technically i have posted on the 6th business day. 

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That's not quite right...

If you say that you will post within 3 business days, then that is what you have promised to do. The delivery estimates are based on your handling time, yes, but they're not meant to be the handling time. The 2-6 business days is in addition to handling time, and is the rough estimate of how long it will take Australia Post to deliver, thus if you have a 3 day handling time, eBay's estimate will be 3 + the 2-6 days for Australia post to deliver, so the date range for arrival shown to the buyer is 5-9 days after purchase and payment, but your responsibilty is to make sure it's posted in 3, rather than arrives within 9. 3 is a promise, 9 is an estimate. 

If you posted on the 5th of November (when the sale ended 26th October), that is 8 business days after the sale, and 5 more than what was stated in the listing- these are simple facts, based on the information you have provided in this post.

For future reference, perhaps look into eBay labels or click and send if you find yourself in similar circumstances - you can pay for postage at any time of the day or night, print out the label, stick it to a package, then drop it in a street box. 

[harley_babes_hoard]

wow lots of excuses there. seller should invest in some satchels so they can put them in the street boxes on the way to work if it's such a problem.

[modestbods]

SPOILER: Very long post to follow, sorry.

Hi Carly,

thanks for coming here and providing your side of the story, it's not often we get to learn both sides from both parties involved.

I realize this can't be an easy situation to find yourself in, and it must be upsetting to you to have found that it was being discussed publicly in this forum. Given the circumstances, I'm sure we all appreciate the polite & controlled manner in which you have presented your version of events.

 It is unfortunate that you were unable to get away from work to post the items in the time period that you had initially promised to. It is also unfortunate that your car broke down preventing you from posting the items until even longer still.

 I certainly empathise with you, sometimes things happen that are beyond our control. However, the time period that you state in your listings for your posting an item is within your control. Only you know what your work hours are, and whether or not you can get away from work to post something (during a lunch break perhaps). You shouldn't be providing a handling/posting time in your listings that you know you can't meet.

On three occasions you failed to deliver on your promises to this buyer. After being unable to post within 3 days (broken promise #1) due to not being able to get away from work you then promised to post it by the weekend ie. Saturday. 6 days after sale. You were then unable to do so on the Saturday (broken promise #2) due to car failure, and you messaged the buyer promising to post on Monday instead. On Monday you found out from the mechanic your car wouldn't be fixed until Wednesday and you messaged the buyer telling them you now couldn't post until Wednesday (broken promise #3). 

 By your own admission the buyer made it known to you (in reply to your email promising to post it by the weekend) that she was on a deadline as she was leaving for a cruise on 12/11.  You make the point she had not asked for a refund, yet by your own admission the buyer sent you a message prior to your posting the item on 5/11 in which she told you that it was ‘not good enough’. Perhaps you can be excused for not recognizing this message implied she wanted a refund, at the very least though, it should have been sufficient for you to seek clarification on how she wanted to proceed (given even ‘Blind Freddy’ would have to realize that there was little/no chance it would arrive to her in time after being posted at that very late stage) .

 I do find it curious that you make no mention whatsoever of  when it was that you became aware that the buyer had opened a dispute with Paypal. The OP has informed us that she did so after she sent you the message telling you ‘this is not good enough’, and it sounds like she did so very soon after sending that message. If indeed you were aware of the Paypal dispute being opened prior to your then posting the item, then your assertion that you were not aware the OP wanted a refund prior to your posting holds no water at all.

I suspect perhaps you were aware of the Paypal dispute being opened & you simply panicked and posted the item in the hope that it might get you ‘off the hook’, at least as far as Paypal is concerned. I have some bad news for you though, the only way that you can now win the Paypal dispute is by relying on the buyers honesty & for the buyer to now choose to let you ‘off the hook’.

 You may not have realized it, but you have already lost the Paypal dispute. If the buyer escalates the claim on the grounds of item not received, you have lost, and there is no way that you can get it reversed without the buyer’s co-operation. It doesn’t matter if the item is delivered or not, or if your tracking shows it has been delivered, as you can’t prove to Paypal where it was delivered to.

 I refer to the information that you yourself have provided.

Wednesday 5th November i got my car back and went straight to the post office to buy the postage bags. I went home to find an email from you that "its not good enough" (i have kept your messages if you want to see them) but in this message again you didn’t mention about a refund. I took the postage bag to my local post box by 6pm THAT night.

In order to prove delivery to a buyers address, you must provide Paypal with an Australia Post receipt that includes the addressee’s postcode in the printed receipt. It’s not possible to get that on a receipt merely for buying a prepaid satchel unless you purchase signature on delivery with it, which you didn’t get, not when you deposited it in an AP box. So as it stands, unless the buyer voluntarily admits that they have in fact received it, you can’t prove otherwise to Paypals satisfaction. And this is not a grey area, it’s black & white with Paypal ie. you’ve already lost the dispute.

Now I believe the buyer to be an honest person so I doubt they would accept delivery and say otherwise, but if they refuse the delivery (regardless of if it's 'returned to sender') then they can honestly say they never received it, and you lose the dispute (& possibly even the goods if AP don't return them). You might like to suggest this might not be exactly ethical of the buyer to do, but whether you care to admit it or not, the buyer will know when it was they opened the Paypal dispute & therefore they should know if you were likely to be aware of the dispute prior to posting, if they have good reason to believe you were aware of it then they have no ethical obligation to accept delivery in those circumstances. 

 As I said previously, sometimes things happen that are beyond our control. In this instance though most things were very much in your control most of the way throughout the process. Yes you had to work, yes your car broke down, but you chose to promise to post within a set time despite your work, & you should have made other arrangements after your car broke down  ie. public transport, a lift with friend/family, a taxi, etc...

Even if these things were out of your control, they are still your responsibility and yours alone. It’s your work that wouldn’t let you out to go to the post office, & it’s your car that broke down. It is certainly not the buyers responsibility, and in the circumstances I believe the buyer had been very restrained, and also very forgiving up to a point. In the end it appears that you may have panicked and chose to try to ‘stick’ them with a purchase knowing it was very unlikely to meet their requirements any longer.

 Put yourself in the buyers shoes, and take a walk back through the entire transaction from their perspective, and if you are honest with yourself you can only come to the same conclusion that I/we have done, that the seller (you) has proven unreliable by failing repeatedly to deliver on their promises & failed to honour the contract of sale.

At this stage, your primary concern should not be making excuses for your failures, but rather how you can make things right with the buyer. They should not be required to pay for your mistakes, which thus far is exactly what you have been asking them to do.

 Bear in mind too, that they were buying these dresses for a once in a lifetime type cruise, and it’s very possible the troubles they’ve encountered from what should have been a simple & straightforward transaction may well have taken the shine off of it for them, even if only a little. I very much hope not, and it was with this in mind that I went to a good deal of time & effort to do all I could to try to ease their worries (& I point out I’m not the seller here, so I have no vested interest in ensuring this buyer has a satisfactory outcome... but you should have).

So how can you make it right? At the bare minimum, you voluntarily give a full refund (including postage), you apologize most profusely, and you agree to pay the cost of postage for the goods to be returned to you (in the event they can’t simply mark them ‘return to sender’). I say at the bare minimum, because at the end of it all, your failures and your subsequent refusal/reluctance to take responsibility for those failures has cost the buyer a good deal of time and trouble that they otherwise should not have been put to. Were it I in your position, to make up for this I would issue a full refund & tell the buyer to also keep the goods as a gift by way of an apology from me... it’s called goodwill.

 If however you find that you are not motivated by a desire to do the right thing by the buyer, then perhaps you should at least be motivated by a desire to do the right thing by yourself and try to avoid a negative feedback. As it stands, if you now don’t voluntarily take steps to try to make amends to the buyer, albeit belatedly, then they would rightfully have every reason to leave you a negative. I think you are fortunate in that this buyer seems quite genuine and understanding, so you have a good chance for redeeming yourself and avoiding a negative in my opinion... but not if you continue with the excuses.

Okay, so enough is enough is enough...

In a nutshell;

• You broke your promise to the buyer, 3 times over
• You failed to ensure the goods were delivered in a timely manner & as per the conditions as set out by you in your listing
• You knew the buyer was on a deadline, and you posted them at a time when it would not be reasonable to believe they would arrive in time to make that deadline
• You posted the items at a time when there was every reason to believe the buyer no longer had use for them & was wanting a refund instead.
• You now can’t win a Paypal dispute for INR without relying on the buyers honesty &/ co-operation if they were to accept delivery, and you cannot win an INR period if they refuse delivery.
• It is likely the goods will be returned to you via ‘return to sender’ (ie. at your cost) & you will certainly then lose the dispute and Paypal will issue a refund accordingly
• As it stamds you are now faced with the probability of receiving a negative feedback
• You still have the opportunity to voluntarily make amends to the buyer
• You may still be able to redeem yourself & avoid a negative feedback.

Carly, my advice to you is; stop trying to ‘win’ at the buyers expense, because you can’t. Try instead to work with the buyer in order to limit your losses in this situation.