Easter Special: The Historicity of the Resurrection.

[the_bob_delusion]

Without using "faith, is it possible to prove historically that Jesus Rose from the Dead?

These are the main evidence for the resurrection of Jesus based on foremost Christian Apologists.

Jesus was crucified

Tomb was found empty

Women are reported as Witnesses to his empty tomb

Jesus' followers and Paul(an Enemy) saw Jesus after he died. 

The best explanation is that Jesus Rose from the dead according to apologists. 

Do these "facts" convience you?

[the_bob_delusion]

THe point of OP is to determine how do we establish something in the past more likely happened or not.

[nevynreally]

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

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@nevynreally wrote:

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bob is stating there is no evidence to back up your beliefs.

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Actually I'm asking if that evidence is enough to come to that conclusion? Do you think that a person rising from the dead 2000 yrs ago is an extrodinary claim or not?

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But the evidence you keep bringing up is based on second, third,etc accounts, not real evidence.

Let people have their faith. Only bothers me when people try and push their beliefs on me personally. On a forum, don't care. 

[nevynreally]

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

THe point of OP is to determine how do we establish something in the past more likely happened or not.

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Now we have to stick to the OP?

Sorry.

[rabbitearbandicoot]

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@nevynreally wrote:

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bob is stating there is no evidence to back up your beliefs.

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is he? He is correct. There is no evidence that Jesus was raisd from the dead.

[nevynreally]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@nevynreally wrote:

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bob is stating there is no evidence to back up your beliefs.

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is he? He is correct. There is no evidence that Jesus was raisd from the dead.

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Okay. So is there a point you two, or you one, which ever is applicible, want to make?

[rabbitearbandicoot]

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

Supposely there're reports of Joseph Smith having been given information by the Angel Moronays. Multiple witness attested to this and this information lead to many others beliving this must be true or otherwise the religion would never have started. Do you think this is sufficient evidence on historical ground to conclude Joseph Smith has been visited by the Angel Moronay? If not, why don't you accept this as sufficient evidence to prove the truth of it. What would you need to establish this most likely happened? Is Heresay enough evidence for you?

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He claimed that he had been visited by the angel Moroni. No-one witnessed this or the golden plates. He sat in a room separated from anyone and 'dictated' the book of mormon to a colegue in another room -supposedly from the gold plates which he translated with the aid of a translator plate found with the golf plates? Strangely, the errors later found in King James Bible were EXACTLY the same errors that are in the Book of Mormon - which suggests to me (and many others) that he was actually dictating straight from the King James. He maintained that Jesus went to America AFTER his death in Jerusalem.

So, in short, there were no 'multiple witnesses' that I know of - correct me if I am wrong.

[the_great_she_elephant]

You are right Rabbit. There might possibly be historical evidence for the crucifiction (though I haven't actually seen any) but how could there possibly be evidence that he rose from the dead? Even if the tomb was indeed found  empty it wouldn't prove anything except that the body was no longer there.

[rabbitearbandicoot]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

Supposely there're reports of Joseph Smith having been given information by the Angel Moronays. Multiple witness attested to this and this information lead to many others beliving this must be true or otherwise the religion would never have started. Do you think this is sufficient evidence on historical ground to conclude Joseph Smith has been visited by the Angel Moronay? If not, why don't you accept this as sufficient evidence to prove the truth of it. What would you need to establish this most likely happened? Is Heresay enough evidence for you?

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He claimed that he had been visited by the angel Moroni. No-one witnessed this or the golden plates. He sat in a room separated from anyone and 'dictated' the book of mormon to a colegue in another room -supposedly from the gold plates which he translated with the aid of a translator plate found with the golf plates? Strangely, the errors later found in King James Bible were EXACTLY the same errors that are in the Book of Mormon - which suggests to me (and many others) that he was actually dictating straight from the King James. He maintained that Jesus went to America AFTER his death in Jerusalem.

So, in short, there were no 'multiple witnesses' that I know of - correct me if I am wrong.

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Sorry, I just read this:

These men, known collectively as the Three Witnesses—along with a later group of Eight Witnesses composed of male members of the Whitmer and Smith families—signed statements testifying that they had seen the golden plates; the eight witnesses also said they had actually handled the plates.[45] According to Smith, the angel Moroni took back the plates once Smith finished using them.

[the_bob_delusion]

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

Supposely there're reports of Joseph Smith having been given information by the Angel Moronays. Multiple witness attested to this and this information lead to many others beliving this must be true or otherwise the religion would never have started. Do you think this is sufficient evidence on historical ground to conclude Joseph Smith has been visited by the Angel Moronay? If not, why don't you accept this as sufficient evidence to prove the truth of it. What would you need to establish this most likely happened? Is Heresay enough evidence for you?

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He claimed that he had been visited by the angel Moroni. No-one witnessed this or the golden plates. He sat in a room separated from anyone and 'dictated' the book of mormon to a colegue in another room -supposedly from the gold plates which he translated with the aid of a translator plate found with the golf plates? Strangely, the errors later found in King James Bible were EXACTLY the same errors that are in the Book of Mormon - which suggests to me (and many others) that he was actually dictating straight from the King James. He maintained that Jesus went to America AFTER his death in Jerusalem.

So, in short, there were no 'multiple witnesses' that I know of - correct me if I am wrong.

---

Sorry, I just read this:

These men, known collectively as the Three Witnesses—along with a later group of Eight Witnesses composed of male members of the Whitmer and Smith families—signed statements testifying that they had seen the golden plates; the eight witnesses also said they had actually handled the plates.[45] According to Smith, the angel Moroni took back the plates once Smith finished using them.

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Do these "facts" convience you that it happened historically? If not why not? It''s based on the same heresay but since it's only a few hundred years ago instead of thousands of years ago do you think it's more reliable historically?

[rabbitearbandicoot]

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

You are right Rabbit. There might possibly be historical evidence for the crucifiction (though I haven't actually seen any) but how could there possibly be evidence that he rose from the dead? Even if the tomb was indeed found  empty it wouldn't prove anything except that the body was no longer there.

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Yes, except that the Bible (I know, unacceptable as Bob's evidence) tells of those who saw him afterwards.

On another related point.

According to a TV show I watched part of last week, called something like "Jesus - Rise to Power" historians are not even sure what 'shape' the Romans used to crusify people - whether it was as is depicted in most Religious books a cross or whether it was like an X or if it was just a straight pole.