Equlity. Good thing or not?

[poddster]

This is a simple poll (or is it );-)B-)]:)

The question is:-

Should all people be equal?

Give ita bit of thought before you answer.

If you answer Yes

Why did you answer in the affirmative?

Describe the :"equal" person that everyone should modeled on

If you answer No

Why did you answer in he negative?

[*crikey*mate*]

Lets throw your scenario back to 1910. Who would you say is likely to get a BMW first with everyone working 100hrs a week - The white male born to wealth or the black female born into poverty?. They both share the same goals but the lady, determined as she may be, her aspirations and future outlook are limited by the inequalities of her era. Sure we've come leaps and bounds since then but we've not ironed out all the wrinkles in achieving true equality which goes beyond material possessions or personal achievements.

I get what you're saying.

I just believe that true equality, in all senses of the word is severely limited by a person's own mindset and what they perceive equality to be - and that is the greatest obstacle anyone faces before they even begin to address the inequlities imposed on them by mans' intrapersonal variables.

example -

2 people

both told they can't do something (or have a disability etc that prevents them from doing so)

one says "OK" and thus does nothing to improve their situation.

the other says "we'll just see about that", and then does whatever it takes to give it their best shot at achieving it.

[*crikey*mate*]

"Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

(Abraham Lincoln - the opening words of  the Gettysburg Address.)

and as Martin Luther King later paid reference to that speech

"I have a dream"

[para-sights]

True but if that disabled person is born into poverty or even middle class they certainly wouldn't be getting the same education, opportunities, advantages and medical treatments as say someone like Lachlan Murdoch LOL

[the_great_she_elephant]

So, it is an expectation that opportunities are given?

Some people look for them and others wouldn't recognize one if it sat on their head.

What one person sees as an opportunity, another person sees as hard work or inconvenient.

Of course it's an expectation that opportunities should be available - whether people  grasp those opportunities is about attitude not equality.

And recognizing an opportunity is not all it takes -  it has to be one the person is capable of grasping.

For example: I decided at the age of around forty that I wanted to be a writer. I didn't just sit there thinking how nice it would be - I wrote ....... and wrote and wrote and wrote, for eight years and collected enough rejection slips to paper my toilet walls before eventually someone offered to publish one of my books. I recognised the opportunity and took it - but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to assume it was simply hard work that got me there and that anyone could be a published author if they just tried hard enough.

You see, writing wasn't my first ambition. I have a passion for traditional folk music and I would have sold my soul to be able to sing them professionally on stage. However, I was born with a disability. I simply cannot sing in tune. So no-matter how many opportunities I sought out, how many lessons I took or how long and hard I practiced, there was no way in the world I could ever have made it as a singer. 

[*crikey*mate*]

True but if that disabled person is born into poverty or even middle class they certainly wouldn't be getting the same education, opportunities, advantages and medical treatments as say someone like Lachlan Murdoch LOL

I do get what you're saying.

And I do agree with that (to a large point) and I really do wish that things could be different to how they are.

But there are also plenty of examples of those in a similar class to Lachlan Murdoch who don't make the most of the opportunities that they seemingly have.

You can send a kid to Harvard or the most elite school - but you can't make him study unless he wants to.

Opportunities are useless unless you're prepared to take advantage of them.

Medical treatment is similarly useless if you won't do what the doctor says to do.

[*crikey*mate*]

So, it is an expectation that opportunities are given?

Some people look for them and others wouldn't recognize one if it sat on their head.

What one person sees as an opportunity, another person sees as hard work or inconvenient.

Of course it's an expectation that opportunities should be available - whether people  grasp those opportunities is about attitude not equality.

And recognizing an opportunity is not all it takes -  it has to be one the person is capable of grasping.

For example: I decided at the age of around forty that I wanted to be a writer. I didn't just sit there thinking how nice it would be - I wrote ....... and wrote and wrote and wrote, for eight years and collected enough rejection slips to paper my toilet walls before eventually someone offered to publish one of my books. I recognised the opportunity and took it - but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to assume it was simply hard work that got me there and that anyone could be a published author if they just tried hard enough.

You see, writing wasn't my first ambition. I have a passion for traditional folk music and I would have sold my soul to be able to sing them professionally on stage. However, I was born with a disability. I simply cannot sing in tune. So no-matter how many opportunities I sought out, how many lessons I took or how long and hard I practiced, there was no way in the world I could ever have made it as a singer. 

I agree with what you are saying - and I tried to respond earlier in a similar fashion (with regards to the Salieri/Motzart discussion), but the words just wouldn't come out right and my examples lacked substance.

You may never have made it as a singer (besides - how many people actually do?) - but the practise and work would have got you closer to your goal - (or at least helped you to maintain composure during a karaoke session LOL). It may not have been your ideal or your dream - but it would have been something iykwim.

And as for the writing - that's what I'm talking about - you did what you had to do to make it happen - you didn't give up at the first or maybe even 10th obstacle - you tried a different approach, or had another go.

As a kid I was forced to learn the piano - and I did - for 12 years - (hated 11 1/2 of them). I practised every day (usually half heartedly with the promise of a bribe from my parents or a caning from the nuns) as I was told to and naturally I was good (compared to someone who never had lessons or practised the piano). But I would never have been "great" iykwim. 

There was this other girl at the convent with me. Her parents didn't value music and thus she only got a few lessons here and there. But despite her lacking the same opportunities as I had - she worked hard - hard to explain the extremes she would go to to achieve what she was able to. (just one - because she wasn't getting paid for lessons - she had to practise whenever the piano wasn't being used etc - so she would get up at 3am every morning to get her shot at that piano (cos we had to be in Chapel by 5) I can't remember a day where I didn't wake up and meander down to that Chapel and she was already there practising. Her hand posture was atrocious (and she only had small hands so her handspan across the keys was very limited) but despite all that, she was truly brilliant - a natural talent which was built on by her hard work and determination. She found a way around her obstacles and achieved her dreams.

[izabsmiling]

http://www.immi.gov.au/living-in-australia/values/book/english/lia_english_part1.pdf

Australian Values Statement
You must sign this statement if you are aged 18 years or over.
I confirm that I have read, or had explained to me, information provided by the Australian Government on
Australian society and values.
I understand:
• Australian society values respect for the freedom and dignity of the individual, freedom of religion,
commitment to the rule of law, parliamentary democracy, equality of men and women and a spirit of
egalitarianism that embraces mutual respect, tolerance, fair play and compassion for those in need and
pursuit of the public good.
• Australian society values equality of opportunity for individuals, regardless of their race, religion or
ethnic background.
• The English language, as the national language, is an important unifying element of Australian society.
I undertake to respect these values of Australian society during my stay in Australia and to obey the laws of
Australia.
I understand that, if I should seek to become an Australian citizen:
• Australian citizenship is a shared identity, a common bond which unites all Australians while respecting
their diversity.
• Australian citizenship involves reciprocal rights and responsibilities. The responsibilities of Australian
citizenship include obeying Australian laws, including those relating to voting at elections and serving
on a jury.
• If I meet the legal qualifications for becoming an Australian citizen and my application is approved,
I understand that I would have to pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people.

[izabsmiling]

Crikey Mate , I don't necessarily see a BMW and assume that person has worked hard .When I see a 20 year old bomb of a car I don't assume that person hasn't worked hard and isn't the best they can be.If someone worked 100hrs a week just for a BMW while they had a family who they owed more than money to....I would not think them someone to look up to.

[izabsmiling]

and as Martin Luther King later paid reference to that speech

"I have a dream"

Do you understand why and what it meant ?

The reason and the message is in stark contrast to the things you are saying.

[margomeoz]

I would like my bank account to be equal to Gina's then I would share it with others less fortunate.

I have a socialist heart but don't think anyone can make true socialism work, mainly because

people suffer from greed, I would like to see everyone equal, this can only happen when the greed in the world is overcome by the good in peoples hearts.