God Help the Kids

[tommy.irene]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/video-emerges-of-torture-of-child-prisoners-in-aus...

[chameleon54]

I don't claim to be any expert on indigenous offenders but do have some personal insight and experience.

Some years ago I worked with young men, supervising offenders who had been given court orders for community service. This work involves a lot of casual counselling as much as actually keeping them physically working. Some of these guys had committed fairly serious crimes and always had a history of social deprivation and dysfunction, but in all cases they genuinely wanted to try to improve their lot.

I suspect the ones I came into contact with where the ones who had a genuine chance of rehabilitation. The tougher nuts would be in the detention system.

A member of my family has 25 years experience working with indigenous youth with feotel alcohol syndrome and  running women's shelters for indigenous woman. She lives in the communities and has become highly regarded in indigenous affairs including being involved in government policy development.

I have also had experience with young people with drug dependency issues and mental health problems including witnessing forceful restraints by the relevant authorities

None of it is easy or clean or polite or gentle. When confronted with an imminent event people do whatever they have to in order to contain the situation.

[chameleon54]

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@debra9275 wrote:

What I saw was a kid standing against a wall playing with a pack of cards, then 3 big men came in grabbed him with force stripped him and sat on him..  He didn't for one second  look threatening  or resist.  as they shut the door on their way out, one of them dropped a white towel or something  on the floor. The kid was then seen pacing the room.

 It was not a white towel, it was a safe privacy gown that the juvenile put on after the officers left.

did you have a look to find out why the kids were in there?

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What they are in there for is of little relevance if they are threatening imminent suicide or self harm. In this instance the officers first responsibility is to contain the situation and keep the offender safe.

The procedure is exactly the same for juveniles in the general community experiencing similar emotions and the physical force and restraint used by police and medical staff is often similar............ I have seen it happen on several occasions.

YES it is ugly, highly emotional and confronting, but often there is no other way to keep these young people safe from self harm.

[chameleon54]

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@lionrose.7 wrote:

So what so they come out full of hate and more violent then before they went in OMG what sort of a person thinks torturing any body child or adult is OK.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Some juvenile offenders can be rehabilitated. It is labour intensive, often takes several years and is very expensive. After all of this intensive work and expense the success rates are poor.

There are two very important things for success. The first is that the offender must feel ready and want change in their lives. They need to embrace and actively participate in counselling, drug and alcohol rehabilitation programs and often need to move away from peers who will influence their behavior when released. This is incredibly difficult when peers are lifelong friends and family. These tribal and family skin ties are incredibly strong influences for indigenous Australians.  Another problem is that the services mentioned are often simply not available in isolated communities. This is where tribal elders can have an vitaly important role to play.   

The second thing that is needed is the juveniles must be able to see a future. They need to have goals and a vision of what could be achievable. A job, A car, maybe a sporting career, A chance to better themselves. In reality what hope does an indigenous juvenile offender with years of social disruption and discrimination have of achieving that ??? 

If you throw in the effects of feotal alcohol syndrome, brain damage from extensive solvent sniffing or drug use, conditions such as ADHD and general mental health problems and the mountain for rehabilitation is almost insurmountable.

My sister who has many years of experience in this field believes that self determination would be the most effective way to deal with indigenous communities that still hold onto traditional cultural values. Many of the indigenous NT Australians have these cultural ties. This includes many who we see as marginalized people living in shanty's on the edge of regional centres.

This is political poison. The difficult thing is that it basically sets up one law for Aborigines and one for whites. The Aborigines believe it is their country, we invaded it and they should not respect us or our law. ( maybe they have a point ) 

The other difficulty is that there are not many highly respected elders left. Years of alcohol abuse and marginalization has taken its toll on senior members of indigenous society.

The problems leading to high levels of indigenous youth detention are complex and politically difficult. There are no quick fix, easy answers.

[lionrose.7]

It is our laws that separate as from People like Isis and countries that allow torture, if we torture children then we become no better then them

[debra9275]

I also have a friend who's worked in rehab of similar young indigenous people, she says the success rate is very high, with  a very low percentage of re offenders, but the govt. keeps cutting funding for these programmes

[debra9275]

What they are in there for is of little relevance if they are threatening imminent suicide or self harm. In this instance the officers first responsibility is to contain the situation and keep the offender safe.

i think it does matter if they're being tortured for minor offences, who wouldn't be suicidal or want to self harm if kept in isolation for long periods of time?

[the_great_she_elephant]

And the question put to the phone-in contributors was 'Should there be a more softly-softly approach to these street hardened youths'.

Well there you go - ask the right question and you get the desired answer. 

If the question had been: "Do you believe what was shown here is an appropriate way to treat children in custody?"  do you think the response would still have been the same. 

[chameleon54]

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@debra9275 wrote:

What they are in there for is of little relevance if they are threatening imminent suicide or self harm. In this instance the officers first responsibility is to contain the situation and keep the offender safe.

i think it does matter if they're being tortured for minor offences, who wouldn't be suicidal or want to self harm if kept in isolation for long periods of time?

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Media reports indicate the juvenile Dylan Voller who was the inmate strapped to the chair and also stripped in his cell had committed over 50 RECORDED offences over a number of years. ( who knows how many unrecorded ? ) These offences included attacking his mother, stealing cars and deliberately attempting to murder a police officer by running him down and being part of a pack attack that left a victim unconscious.

He was also a regular " spitter" who had spat on detention centre staff several hundred times. He was also an aggressive ice drug addict. Hardly minor offences, but even so, still irrelevant as to why he was restrained and stripped.

At the time he was placed in the restraint chair he had threatened to " break his arm and poke the bone through his skin". At the time he was forcibly stripped and given a modesty gown to wear, he had threatened to self harm and commit suicide. Would you be happier for the centre staff to stand back and say " go for it boy " .  No doubt there would be howls of protest over " another black death in custody".  

As already mentioned I have seen similar restraint methods used against non indigenous juveniles at risk of harm in the general community in " nice " suburbs and general hospitals.  On one occasion the force used, and procedures followed where almost identical to those used when Dylan was restrained in his cell and stripped. On this occasion the youth was not stripped, but instead handcuffed and then strapped to an ambulance bed by wrist, waist and ankle restraints for an extended period of time.

I had the opportunity to speak to the police involved after the event and they informed me the practice was to use strong, intimidating and controlling force to neutralise the threat and make the juvenile compliant. This had proven to be the best way to prevent the incident from getting out of hand and neutralising the threat of some-one being hurt or injured. The aim is to gain quick, professional control of the juvenile without injuring them. This is what I saw in the four corners footage of Dylan being restrained in his cell and stripped.

Again, I agree it is very confronting, but when placed in context, which four corners failed to do, I believe the actions of the centre staff where appropriate and professional on both of these occasions.

[chameleon54]

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@debra9275 wrote:

I also have a friend who's worked in rehab of similar young indigenous people, she says the success rate is very high, with  a very low percentage of re offenders, but the govt. keeps cutting funding for these programmes

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This is certainly a big part of the problem. It is not just funding cuts perse, but more constant changes in programmes. No sooner are programmes set up, the bugs ironed out and positive outcomes achieved, than policy makers dream up something new and re-direct the funding to their new baby. The existing successful program is then simply shut down. This causes immense frustration for those working in the system long term.

[***super_nova***]

I wish people would 1st watch the whole program before making judgement.

It does not matter what the kids were there for.  Even if they were mass murderers they should not

1-  be left in empty cells in 40plus heat without access to drinking water for days on end

2- they should not  have been all gassed with tear gas in confined space and left there for 6 minutes choking, considering that only one of the 6 was acting up.  The other 5 were just quietly sitting in their cells

3- they should not have then had their arms tied behind their backs and then thrown down on pavement, and hosed down with high pressure firehose until they again could not breath

4- one small not resisting boy should not have been thrown down on his mattress, with 3 burly men pulling his clothing off while one of them sat on him. 

5- there is absolutely no excuse for the guards attacking a boy just standing in the rec room and doing nothing, and throwing him on the floor

These kids are a problem because they are alienated from society; how on earth does treatment like that help them to integrate?  Every time they come out they will be worse than before they went in.

It's absolute disgrace.