Linking Hijab to Oppression of Women

[***super_nova***]

Only 44seconds video

The Problem of Linking Hijab to Oppression of Women

[the_great_she_elephant]

Your version of the Koran says:

5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Tezza's says 

 [O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51)

On what authority are you claiming  yours is right and hers is wrong?

[village_person]

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

As we know interpretation is verboten.

How do WE know? I certainly don't, and neither does anyone else here - unless they have actually asked someone who has the knowledge and authority to tell them. Where does your information come from? 

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See my earlier comment regarding the opening of the koran.

[village_person]

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Your version of the Koran says:

5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Tezza's says 

 [O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51)

On what authority are you claiming  yours is right and hers is wrong?

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Mine is right.

Patron is: a person who is a customer, client, or paying guest, especially a regular one, of a store, hotel, or the like.

a person who supports with money, gifts, efforts, or endorsement an artist, writer, museum, cause, charity, institution, special event, or the like.

Patron doesn't fit at all. I haven't heard of any congregation of any religion called patrons. I've heard them called the faithful but not patrons. Have you heard them called patrons?

[the_great_she_elephant]

I really don't feel like trawling back through all your ramblings blings to find the post you are referring to, but I'll take a guess and assume you are saying that (according to Muslims) every word in the Koran has to be taken at absolutely literally, because it is the immutable word of Allah, and we know it is the immutable word of Allah because it is written in the Koran .............. in the same way that  everything written in the Bible has to be the literal truth because it is the immutable word of God and we know it is the immutable word of God because it is written in the Bible.

You possibly can't see the basic flaw inthat argument, but I'm sure others can. 

Using  verses from the Koran as proof that that is what all Muslims have to believe is no proof at all. It's like using 2 kings:2-11  As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. as proof that all Jews believe Elijah literally went up to heaven in a fiery chariot. It's what is known as a 'non sequitur'.

[the_great_she_elephant]

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@village_person wrote:

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Your version of the Koran says:

5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Tezza's says 

 [O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51)

On what authority are you claiming  yours is right and hers is wrong?

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Mine is right.

Patron is: a person who is a customer, client, or paying guest, especially a regular one, of a store, hotel, or the like.

a person who supports with money, gifts, efforts, or endorsement an artist, writer, museum, cause, charity, institution, special event, or the like.

Patron doesn't fit at all. I haven't heard of any congregation of any religion called patrons. I've heard them called the faithful but not patrons. Have you heard them called patrons?

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It's not talking about congregations it's talking about business dealings - patrons may be customers, or they may be persons of wealth or influence who take others under under their wing or lend  them financial support. Many musicians - Mozart for example - were under the patronage of royalty and many authors had wealthy patrons who paid for the publication of their books.

[lind9650]

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

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Sorry to tell you lind9650 but muslims (A muslim by definition means one who surrenders and submits to the laws of God) are not allowed to cherry-pick the parts of the koran they like and disregard the parts that aren't particularly appealing. Your friend was not a muslim but merely thought she was

Do Catholics who practise birth control merely "think" they are Catholics?

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To clarify VPs assumption.

My muslim friend was born and raised in the USA by muslim parents, went to School there and University where she met her husband, a Saudi Arabian. After finishing their studies and gaining their diplomas, both descided to go back to his home and use their knowledge to help underprivilrdged children.

Her husband even promised not to take another wife or two as is the custom and lawful in Saudi Arabia.

Both have learned differences in the western world that are of benefit in their pursuit to helping others, but despite all this, they both observe the muslim prayer times, Ramadan and other religious rituals.

Their sons, now grown up, attending Universities in England and America.

And NO, my friend does not feel oppressed by having to wear the Hijab. (I have asked her) It's the religion she has chosen to live by. The only oppression she feels is the religious government decree that women are forbiden to drive a car. She drove a car while living in America and has missed that fredom ever since.

Not all muslims are fanatics, but I don't know if I would ever be invited to her home if I had the money to fly over and visit.

Erica

[the_great_she_elephant]

Not all muslims are fanatics, but I don't know if I would ever be invited to her home if I had the money to fly over and visit

thank you, Erica, that's exactly the point I am trying to mke. You don't know - so you don't make assumptionsT

[***super_nova***]

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

Not all muslims are fanatics, but I don't know if I would ever be invited to her home if I had the money to fly over and visit

thank you, Erica, that's exactly the point I am trying to mke. You don't know - so you don't make assumptionsT

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But in some countries people do not just drop on each other as we do here.  You meet friends in cafes, you go for walks, to theater, but home in some countries is often where the whole extended family lives, and you would not bring people home unless you invite them for a special occassion.

[tezza2844]

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@village_person wrote:

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Mine is right.

Patron is: a person who is a customer, client, or paying guest, especially a regular one, of a store, hotel, or the like.

a person who supports with money, gifts, efforts, or endorsement an artist, writer, museum, cause, charity, institution, special event, or the like.

Patron doesn't fit at all. I haven't heard of any congregation of any religion called patrons. I've heard them called the faithful but not patrons. Have you heard them called patrons?

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The point to  note is that, in the verse above, the word Awliwa is often incorrectly translated as “friends” (Awlya is the plural singular is Wali and the concept is Walah). As a result, many people believe that verse commands Muslims to distance themselves from  non-Muslems and to avoid friendship with them.

The lexical meaning of waliyy (plural: awliya') is : a supporter, ally or protector

Perhaps the problem with your quotation is that you are using an interpretation of a translation

[icyfroth]

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@lind9650 wrote:

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@the_great_she_elephant wrote:

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Sorry to tell you lind9650 but muslims (A muslim by definition means one who surrenders and submits to the laws of God) are not allowed to cherry-pick the parts of the koran they like and disregard the parts that aren't particularly appealing. Your friend was not a muslim but merely thought she was

Do Catholics who practise birth control merely "think" they are Catholics?

---

To clarify VPs assumption.

My muslim friend was born and raised in the USA by muslim parents, went to School there and University where she met her husband, a Saudi Arabian. After finishing their studies and gaining their diplomas, both descided to go back to his home and use their knowledge to help underprivilrdged children.

Her husband even promised not to take another wife or two as is the custom and lawful in Saudi Arabia.

Both have learned differences in the western world that are of benefit in their pursuit to helping others, but despite all this, they both observe the muslim prayer times, Ramadan and other religious rituals.

Their sons, now grown up, attending Universities in England and America.

And NO, my friend does not feel oppressed by having to wear the Hijab. (I have asked her) It's the religion she has chosen to live by. The only oppression she feels is the religious government decree that women are forbiden to drive a car. She drove a car while living in America and has missed that fredom ever since.

Not all muslims are fanatics, but I don't know if I would ever be invited to her home if I had the money to fly over and visit.

Erica

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And NO, my friend does not feel oppressed by having to wear the Hijab. (I have asked her) It's the religion she has chosen to live by.

She migh not feel oppressed to wear it, but her religion still requires her to wear it. So it's still a garment of oppression.