on 08-01-2022 02:03 PM
with another day another 30,000+ cases within NSW the pandemic will surely end soon as they run out of the unvaccinated or will Camberra run out of unvaccinated first ?
Fortunately the South Africans were correct in evaluating Omicron as being highly infectious but relatively mild - almost effectively the fourth vaccine for those fated to contract
Solved! Go to Solution.
on 17-01-2022 06:44 PM
With Delta:
2 doses are good at preventing infection
2 doses are very very good at preventing severe illness and death
3 doses are very very good preventing infection
3 doses are extremely good indeed at preventing severe illness and death.
With Omicron:
2 doses are insufficient at preventing infection (but do offer some protection)
2 doses are good at preventing severe illness and death
3 doses are very good at preventing infection
3 doses are extremely good indeed at preventing severe illness and death.
Omicron has changed the goalposts. The two doses that constituted full vaccination against Delta do not offer the same protection against Omicron. Furthermore, the booster dose was already being recommended for those double-vaccinated, as the effectiveness of the vaccines was shown to be waning until at 6 months people would need that booster shot in order to get their immune response back up to around that high level of protection. That's against Delta.
When Omicron entered the picture, the two doses were no longer sufficient. The effectiveness of the two doses against Omicron lowered to the point that at 3 months, a third dose was not only being recommended... it was actually being considered as part of the definition of "full vaccination". Health responses and treatments and vaccinations don't remain static in a swiftly moving environment.
You could say "Ah, so the vaccinated can pass on the virus, so what's the point in forcing anyone to be vaccinated and making it a requirement of entry or anything of that nature?" The point is that the unvaccinated are far more likely to become infected or to infect others. They are the highest risk group for contracting the virus, and for infecting others.
The point is also that, as evidence came in about the waning effectiveness against infection (Omicron variant) over time of two vaccination doses, public health response changed to the new data. The third dose brings up the level of protection against INFECTION to roughly the same level as the vaccination (two doses) had against the original strain of COVID-19. That is, highly effective in preventing infection.
And perhaps the most important point... The people at highest risk of requiring hospitalisation with COVID-19, and of requiring ICU, and of dying, are these:
unvaccinated people (even if they've previously been infected with COVID-19)
partially vaccinated people whose immune response has not yet kicked into maximum (hasn't been long enough since their second dose, or they haven't had their second dose yet)
immunocompromised people
pregnant women
people with certain medical conditions.
The unvaccinated are disproportionately represented in the numbers being hospitalised, but even more so in the numbers requiring ICU and with those who are so severely ill that they require ventilation.
Also, please bear in mind that COVID-19 is a very infectious disease. It has been noted as very infectious right from the start, which is why it has spread all over the globe and caused a pandemic. With so many being infected, even a relatively small percentage of deaths will be quite a large number.
Omicron is considerably more infectious still. It seems quite likely that Omicron is milder than Delta, but that does not make it a mild disease. Omicron is wildly, insanely infectious, and its mutations make it adept at evading immune response and reinfecting, so even where populations have high levels of vaccination, Omicron overwhelms the community (particularly since, with those high levels of vaccination, many social distancing and mask-wearing requirements were ditched).
That does not mean that vaccinations serve no purpose (or very little purpose). It does mean that a third dose is indicated at about 3 months after your last (second) dose. But that's to get numbers of infections down. We can see how effective the vaccines are by the low numbers of hospitalisations and patients in ICU, and the low (although heartbreaking) numbers of deaths.
Had we gone for the unvaccinated route, we'd be in so much more pain...
I look at study data, raw data, not political yap-yap-yap. I'm hugely unimpressed with Australia's current COVID-19 response... We were doing so well, and then ... bang... they let go.
17-01-2022 07:08 PM - edited 17-01-2022 07:09 PM
@chameleon54 wrote:
General comments only, not directed at K1ooo ( who usually takes a considered approach to his posts )
I'll take that as a compliment.
on 17-01-2022 07:15 PM
@countessalmirena wrote:With Delta:
2 doses are good at preventing infection
No - no doses prevent infection.
2 doses are very very good at preventing severe illness and death
3 doses are very very good preventing infection
There has been nothing to indicate any preventing of infection.
3 doses are extremely good indeed at preventing severe illness and death.
With Omicron:
2 doses are insufficient at preventing infection (but do offer some protection)
2 doses are good at preventing severe illness and death
3 doses are very good at preventing infection
Again - there is nothing proven to say infection is not possible.
Nothing has been proven to prevent infection. LOL
3 doses are extremely good indeed at preventing severe illness and death.
Omicron has changed the goalposts. The two doses that constituted full vaccination against Delta do not offer the same protection against Omicron. Furthermore, the booster dose was already being recommended for those double-vaccinated, as the effectiveness of the vaccines was shown to be waning until at 6 months people would need that booster shot in order to get their immune response back up to around that high level of protection. That's against Delta.
When Omicron entered the picture, the two doses were no longer sufficient. The effectiveness of the two doses against Omicron lowered to the point that at 3 months, a third dose was not only being recommended... it was actually being considered as part of the definition of "full vaccination". Health responses and treatments and vaccinations don't remain static in a swiftly moving environment.
You could say "Ah, so the vaccinated can pass on the virus, so what's the point in forcing anyone to be vaccinated and making it a requirement of entry or anything of that nature?" The point is that the unvaccinated are far more likely to become infected or to infect others.
No we can all pass it.
They are the highest risk group for contracting the virus, and for infecting others.
Where is the proof - the contracting & the passing of the virus is only with th unvaccinated.
The point is also that, as evidence came in about the waning effectiveness against infection (Omicron variant) over time of two vaccination doses, public health response changed to the new data. The third dose brings up the level of protection against INFECTION to roughly the same level as the vaccination (two doses) had against the original strain of COVID-19. That is, highly effective in preventing infection.
Nothing has prevented infection - nothing.
And perhaps the most important point... The people at highest risk of requiring hospitalisation with COVID-19, and of requiring ICU, and of dying, are these:
unvaccinated people (even if they've previously been infected with COVID-19)
partially vaccinated people whose immune response has not yet kicked into maximum (hasn't been long enough since their second dose, or they haven't had their second dose yet)
immunocompromised people
pregnant women
people with certain medical conditions.
The unvaccinated are disproportionately represented in the numbers being hospitalised, but even more so in the numbers requiring ICU and with those who are so severely ill that they require ventilation.
Also, please bear in mind that COVID-19 is a very infectious disease. It has been noted as very infectious right from the start, which is why it has spread all over the globe and caused a pandemic. With so many being infected, even a relatively small percentage of deaths will be quite a large number.
Omicron is considerably more infectious still. It seems quite likely that Omicron is milder than Delta, but that does not make it a mild disease. Omicron is wildly, insanely infectious, and its mutations make it adept at evading immune response and reinfecting, so even where populations have high levels of vaccination, Omicron overwhelms the community (particularly since, with those high levels of vaccination, many social distancing and mask-wearing requirements were ditched).
That does not mean that vaccinations serve no purpose (or very little purpose). It does mean that a third dose is indicated at about 3 months after your last (second) dose. But that's to get numbers of infections down. We can see how effective the vaccines are by the low numbers of hospitalisations and patients in ICU, and the low (although heartbreaking) numbers of deaths.
Had we gone for the unvaccinated route, we'd be in so much more pain...
I look at study data, raw data, not political yap-yap-yap. I'm hugely unimpressed with Australia's current COVID-19 response... We were doing so well, and then ... bang... they let go.
Yap - yap - yap.
Sorry.
I'm still fully vaccinated. lol
Vaccinations are not gong to to a thing about the spread - this should be understood.
on 17-01-2022 08:09 PM
When - just when - is it going to be fully understood..........................
Vaccinations will not stop the spread.
Period.
on 17-01-2022 08:45 PM
Actually, according to the recent evidence, "Vaccinated people are, on average, likely to be less contagious."
on 17-01-2022 09:41 PM
domino, the latest data shows that 3 doses of the vaccine does increase the level of protection against infection.
ATAGI stated (24th December) that ❝Strong evidence has accumulated over the past two weeks to indicate that booster doses of COVID-19 vaccines are likely to increase protection against infection with the Omicron variant. ❞
It doesn't bring down the risk of infection to 0, but it does decrease the risk. I am particularly speaking about mRNA vaccines, and the AstraZeneca vaccine. (Some vaccines do not protect against Omicron, in particular those using inactivated / attenuated virus. That is no doubt why China is ruthlessly stamping out every trace of Omicron with mass testing and forced quarantine; they can't afford to let it get away from them.)
A recent South African study (titled SARS-CoV-2 spike T cell responses induced upon vaccination or infection remain robust against Omicron) notes very good T-cell preservation in preventing severe disease among vaccinated individuals. If you'd like to read that study, the link is here.
Another study titled SARS-CoV-2 Omicron VOC Transmission in Danish Households touches on the issue of transmissibility and protection against infection. Link to the full study is here.
From an analysis on that study:
❝The odds that vaccinated people will catch the virus if a household member becomes infected are nearly three to four times higher with Omicron than with Delta, but booster doses reduce that risk, new findings suggest.
Researchers analyzed transmission data collected from nearly 12,000 infected households in Denmark, including 2,225 households with an Omicron infection. Overall, there were 6,397 secondary infections in the week after the first infection in the house. After accounting for other risk factors, the rate of person-to-person spread of the virus to fully vaccinated people was roughly 2.6 times higher in Omicron households than in Delta households, the researchers reported ahead of peer review. Booster-vaccinated people were nearly 3.7 times more likely to get infected in the Omicron households than in the Delta households, they found.
Looking only at Omicron households, however, booster-vaccinated people were 56% less likely to become infected compared to vaccinated people who had not received a booster. And overall, when booster-vaccinated people were the ones who first brought home the virus, they were less likely than unvaccinated and vaccinated-but-not-boosted people to pass it to others.❞
It's not a perfect defence.
I absolutely share your concern about the immunity evasion of Omicron, domino... and I'm also concerned about the duration of the booster effect in vaccinated people. More data needed to see if that wanes...
The booster shot is not the end of the story but in my opinion it is necessary given the current situation. I posted earlier this week about the Omicron-specific vaccine that Pfizer intend to release in a couple of months. We'll need it.
The real worry is if another variant of concern arises with a higher attack rate on the lungs (similar to Delta) combined with vaccine/immunity evasion... higher transmissibility... The longer that SARS-CoV-2 has a chance to mutate in individuals whose immune system isn't strong enough to deal effectively with it, but allows the virus to churn out endless copies of itself (complete with little mistakes that build up to another highly mutated variant), well, the higher chance there is that the resulting variant will throw us another curve-ball.
I am not saying that only unvaccinated people transmit the virus. That's patently not the case. But it is certain from the data the the unvaccinated are more likely to transmit the virus (and to become infected) than people who have been vaccinated with an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine (triple dose). But if anyone believes he/she is safe from being infected because of being vaccinated, and they can just party away and hug people and breathe in their faces... no. Best way to handle the situation is NOT to rely on vaccines as if they're a magic wand. They are a necessary part of our fight against the vaccine (particularly as vaccines continue to be developed with variants in mind), but they're not the only thing we need.
on 18-01-2022 12:32 AM
Actually, "Vaccinated people are, on average, likely to be less contagious."
on 18-01-2022 12:20 PM
Actually, "Vaccinated people are, on average, likely to be less contagious."
on 18-01-2022 03:50 PM
Thank you Countess.
But I will still remain - vaccinations will not stop the spread.
My reasons - married to each other - friends - both jabbed twice - then jabbed again - now have Omicron.
She got it - then passed it.
Guess that will be added to the research.
on 18-01-2022 04:02 PM
That can certainly happen. I wish we had a 100% protection against infection and transmission, but we don’t. Vaccinations won’t stop the spread; they can slow it, limit it, but not stop it.