how many lives did chan & sumurakan ruin

[dellynt]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3056748/It-Bali-Ten-m-lucky-police-arrested-Sydney-man-hired...

How many people in jail  because of this drug running pair

how many lives have been ruined because of them

how many family have this drug running pair ruined

how many people addicted to drugs because of them

how many people dead from their drugs

these 2 are not heros... they are well known drug runners who have ruined countless lives because of their  greed.

bet they would still be running drugs if they hadnt been caught and destroying countless lives

They are getting what they deserve.....

karma I say

[i-need-a-martini]

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@*pepe wrote:

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

An appeal has been scheduled for the 12th of May. A bit late.

Regardless of whether they are guilty or to what degree they are guilty, the Indonesian justice system sucks.

And THAT is the reason that the executions should not go ahead and that ALL Australians should be behind these boys. To make sure others don't die for crimes that do not justify the punishment or, in some cases, to support those that are innocent.

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i do not agree with the death penalty but I also do not agree with the notion that we have the right to enforce our will on another country to make them modify their laws to suit us.

if you think the laws of a foreign country are too harsh, corrupt or unfair, don't go to that country.

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I don't have an issue with any country having their own laws. However the indonesian legal system is the one that is the problem for me. 

A country that executes people without a fair trial? A country that decides whether someone lives or dies based on who's palms have been greased? A country that now executes more foreigners than it does their own citizens even though the crimes are the same? A country that can execute a woman who's guilt is up in the air? A country that has no issue executing a man who is mentally unstable and by all accounts does not even understand that he is being executed? The latter s even against their own laws.

As I keep saying, these are the reasons Australians should be speaking out.

[the_bob_delusion]

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@ambercat16 wrote:

Harsh is one thing - it is the corruption that is within the Indonesian legal system that is the problem for me.

Fair enough - have harsh anti drug laws if that is the way you want to go, that is a decision for each country....but to have a situation where the penalty for a crime depends on the amount you are able to afford to pay the presiding judge rather than the crime you are convicted of is wrong and needs to be protested against.

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And exactly where is the corruption in the case of these 2. 

[*pepe]

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

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@*pepe wrote:

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

An appeal has been scheduled for the 12th of May. A bit late.

Regardless of whether they are guilty or to what degree they are guilty, the Indonesian justice system sucks.

And THAT is the reason that the executions should not go ahead and that ALL Australians should be behind these boys. To make sure others don't die for crimes that do not justify the punishment or, in some cases, to support those that are innocent.

---

i do not agree with the death penalty but I also do not agree with the notion that we have the right to enforce our will on another country to make them modify their laws to suit us.

if you think the laws of a foreign country are too harsh, corrupt or unfair, don't go to that country.

---

I don't have an issue with any country having their own laws. However the indonesian legal system is the one that is the problem for me. 

A country that executes people without a fair trial? A country that decides whether someone lives or dies based on who's palms have been greased? A country that now executes more foreigners than it does their own citizens even though the crimes are the same? A country that can execute a woman who's guilt is up in the air? A country that has no issue executing a man who is mentally unstable and by all accounts does not even understand that he is being executed? The latter s even against their own laws.

As I keep saying, these are the reasons Australians should be speaking out.

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 i think these are reasons Indonesians should be speaking out and reasons Australians should think twice before going there - especially if they plan on doing anything illegal.

the whole world knows of the corruption - so avoid the place.

[ambercat16]

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

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@ambercat16 wrote:

Harsh is one thing - it is the corruption that is within the Indonesian legal system that is the problem for me.

Fair enough - have harsh anti drug laws if that is the way you want to go, that is a decision for each country....but to have a situation where the penalty for a crime depends on the amount you are able to afford to pay the presiding judge rather than the crime you are convicted of is wrong and needs to be protested against.

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And exactly where is the corruption in the case of these 2. 

http://www.smh.com.au/world/they-asked-for-130k-and-then-more-new-claims-of-bribes-in-bali-nine-duo-...

The former lawyer of Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran has outlined explosive allegations of corruption by the judges that sentenced the Bali nine duo to death, saying they asked for more than $130,000 to give them a prison term of less than 20 years.

The judges, it is alleged, then asked for an even greater sum for a lighter sentence, money Mr Rifan​ did not have.

"We met many times with the judges," he said. "It was more than 1 billion rupiah [about $133,000 at the time] to get a verdict lower than 20 years –15 or 16 or 17 years like that. So then we had a deal on that."

But following the intervention, Mr Rifan​ said the judges "said the risk was now too big for them and that the [1 billion rupiah] was not enough."

At this point, Mr Rifan​ says he made a fatal miscalculation. He believed the judges were bluffing.

"I thought they were only joking. I thought they would return back to the 20 years if I didn't come up with more money."

But, on February 14, 2006, Chan and Sukumaran​ were sentenced to death.

[i-need-a-martini]

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@the_bob_delusion wrote:

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@ambercat16 wrote:

Harsh is one thing - it is the corruption that is within the Indonesian legal system that is the problem for me.

Fair enough - have harsh anti drug laws if that is the way you want to go, that is a decision for each country....but to have a situation where the penalty for a crime depends on the amount you are able to afford to pay the presiding judge rather than the crime you are convicted of is wrong and needs to be protested against.

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And exactly where is the corruption in the case of these 2. 

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Bob - you know exactly what the corruption is in the Indonesian judicial system. The lawyer for these 2 spelled it out - he thought they were bluffing when they asked for more money.

A perfect example is the case of Lindsay Sandilands. Even the Prosecutors did not recommemd the death penalty yet the judging panel sentenced her to death even though the same hearing gave custodial sentences to others who's drug crimes were far more severe.

The reason? She had no money to pay out.

Do you think Corby would still be in gaol if her family and her lawyers had made their offers of payment at the beginning instead of later? I don't think so.

[i-need-a-martini]

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@*pepe wrote:

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 i think these are reasons Indonesians should be speaking out and reasons Australians should think twice before going there - especially if they plan on doing anything illegal.

the whole world knows of the corruption - so avoid the place.

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Sure. Don't plan on doing anything illegal. Tell that to stupid teenagers.

Or tell that to those that are mentally incapable of making decisions.

Or tell that to gullible women tricked (without their knowledge) into carrying drugs into the country.

All well and good to say "don't do something illegal". But whether a person has done something stupid or not, a fair trial is the least we shoudl expect of any country. 

Particularly when that country is our nearest neighbour and we provide them with support in the various ways we do.

[i-need-a-martini]

Not to mention that of the 60 odd people on death row at the moment in Indonesia, over 60% are foreigners.

Why is that?

[chameleon54]

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@karliandjacko wrote:

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@i-need-a-martini wrote:

An appeal has been scheduled for the 12th of May. A bit late.

Regardless of whether they are guilty or to what degree they are guilty, the Indonesian justice system sucks.

And THAT is the reason that the executions should not go ahead and that ALL Australians should be behind these boys. To make sure others don't die for crimes that do not justify the punishment or, in some cases, to support those that are innocent.

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Which begs the question - Why schedule an appeal to be heard after their deaths?

I find that baffling.

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My understanding is the appeal is based on the payment of a $130,000 bribe which was meant to buy a reduction of penalty from death to 20 years to life in prison. The bribe was supposedly discovered by authorities higher up the legal system who over-rode the bribe system to ensure the standard sentance of death was applied in the case.

The fact that the two where found guilty of smuggling the drugs is not disputed. The death penalty is the default sentence for drug smuggling in Indonesia. Therefore even if the appeal found corruption was involved in the sentencing process, the death penalty would be the default response even if bribes had not been paid by the drug smugglers.

Indonesia acknowledges that corruption is a problem in their legal system and the appeal process is being used to try to address this structural problem, rather than re-assesing the drug smugglers penalty. It may not be the way we do things in Australia, but it does have some logic to it.

The fact that Indonesia acknowledges corruption is a problem and they are looking to investigate and try to address it is one small positive to come out of this whole sorry mess.

[i-need-a-martini]

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@chameleon54 wrote:

---

@karliandjacko wrote:

---

@i-need-a-martini wrote:

An appeal has been scheduled for the 12th of May. A bit late.

Regardless of whether they are guilty or to what degree they are guilty, the Indonesian justice system sucks.

And THAT is the reason that the executions should not go ahead and that ALL Australians should be behind these boys. To make sure others don't die for crimes that do not justify the punishment or, in some cases, to support those that are innocent.

---

Which begs the question - Why schedule an appeal to be heard after their deaths?

I find that baffling.

---

My understanding is the appeal is based on the payment of a $130,000 bribe which was meant to buy a reduction of penalty from death to 20 years to life in prison. The bribe was supposedly discovered by authorities higher up the legal system who over-rode the bribe system to ensure the standard sentance of death was applied in the case.

The fact that the two where found guilty of smuggling the drugs is not disputed. The death penalty is the default sentence for drug smuggling in Indonesia. Therefore even if the appeal found corruption was involved in the sentencing process, the death penalty would be the default response even if bribes had not been paid by the drug smugglers.

Indonesia acknowledges that corruption is a problem in their legal system and the appeal process is being used to try to address this structural problem, rather than re-assesing the drug smugglers penalty. It may not be the way we do things in Australia, but it does have some logic to it.

The fact that Indonesia acknowledges corruption is a problem and they are looking to investigate and try to address it is one small positive to come out of this whole sorry mess.

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Huh?

The bribes occurred at the time of the first hearing. The appeal is just another confusing mess that even indonesian prosecutors haven't even been able to explain. 

And your post is naive. The corruption in all areas of life in Indonesia is a way of life. This is not opinion but well documented. And the higher you are, the bigger the 'rewards'. The country ranks pretty much right at the top in global corruption rankings.

Indonesia is going to investigate/address this (or any other) corruption? You have blinkers on if you think this. Whoever said they would 'investigate' would not rock their own boat.

[chameleon54]

 When corruption is so totally entrenched as it is in Indonesia, it is going to take decades to make any dent in it. The first step is to actually acknowledge it exists which is where Indonesia is at now.

I don't think for one minute that a single appeal or enquiry or recommendation or incident which causes International concern is going to magically make corruption disappear overnight. I do think the fact that Indonesian officials are willing to publicly admit it is a major problem in their judicial system is an important first step down a very long road.