Buyer wants to pick up and refuses to give a time or day. Wants to come by when it suits them.

[millyswardrobe5]

2 weeks ago I sold a couple of items that had a postage option or a pick up for local buyers.  I work full time and have 2 children who I have to drive to school and various sporting events.  In my description I stated that pick up times would be restricted becasue I can't always be home.  Most buyers who have pick up have been fantastic and were able to give me a time for collection when I given them my availablity.  The buyer I'm having difficulty with said that her life revolves around her children and as such I should be more considerate and wait for her to collect when it is best suited to her.  The first weekend after the sale she sent a message to say that she was going to pick up on the Saturday afternoon or evening.  I originally had plans and said that I was happy to cancel them if it would make her life easier.  I then received a message saying that she would text when she was on her way.  Saturday afternoon and evening passed, I never heard from the buyer.  I also gave her a Sunday morning option to pick up before 9:30am or after 1:30pm.  I work full time and need to do the grocery shopping over the weekend.  Again I never heard from the buyer.  On Monday I received a phone call from her saying that she was coming over to pick the items up.  I apologised to her said that it would not be possible at the current time becasue I was at work and 45 minute drive away from home.  Please note that the buyer lives in the next suberb to me and at most it is 10 minute drive for her.  I then later sent her a messaage to give her some week day mornings and afternoon times for pick up.  Her response was I will call when I'm coming. This has been difficult for me as I have had to commit to being at home for her to come.  On the Friday of the following week she had arranged to pick up at 3:45pm  This was okay and I had said to her as long as it was before 5pm I would be home.  After 6pm I received a message from her saying that she had a headache and wasn't coming for pick up.  She wanted to come over the weekend.  Again I had no response from her.  I really want to cancel the transaction as it is time consuming planning home avaliablity times and commiting to being at home for her not to show.  I am trying to have a clear out before Christmas and items she is picking up are quite bulky.  Am I in the wrong here?  I feel as though I'm the one making all the effort to meet her needs.  I don't really like the pick up option and I only do it as a favour to buyers.  Can I try and cancel the transaction and say that pick up is no longer an option for her?  Is she allowed to leave negative feedback if I say pick up is now no longer an option?  Thank you for your thoughts and ideas 🙂

[coast_golf]

---

@coast_golf wrote:

---

@my*mum wrote:

"Title of course is not transferred until the contract has been performed though."

When has the contract been performed?

---

Once the consideration (in the case of an eBay transaction) has actually been exchanged. If title was to pass immediately upon formation of an executory contract, the buyer would have legal title to an item that they have yet to pay for.

---

I should just add that is contingent on no terms to the contrary which have been agreed upon by both parties (ie. "Buyer takes immediate ownership of the goods and is to pay the sale amount in monthly installments"). Where there is no express conditions dealing with transfer of title, it is implied that title passes upon receipt of the consideration.

[*crikey*mate*]

---

@coast_golf wrote:

---

@my*mum wrote:

"Title of course is not transferred until the contract has been performed though."

When has the contract been performed?

---

Once the consideration (in the case of an eBay transaction) has actually been exchanged. If title was to pass immediately upon formation of an executory contract, the buyer would have legal title to an item that they have yet to pay for.

---

so what does this mean?

TRANSFER OF PROPERTY

RULES FOR ASCERTAINING INTENTION - S. 23 SALE OF GOODS ACT

Unless a different intention appears

RULES

1. Where

unconditional contract

•

Goods in

deliverable state

•

Property passes WHEN CONTRACT IS MADE

•

Immaterial that payment, delivery postponed

[coast_golf]

Just to clarify, I'm specifically referring to eBay sales, transfer of title can be a very complex issue.

The key issue is intent, when do parties intend for title to pass. Where intent is not clear then yes, title passes upon formation. It is the expectation of every buyer and seller on eBay that ownership will only pass when payment has been made in full (unless otherwise agreed upon). The intent is very clear in this situation.

I'm half asleep so this is the best analogy that I can come up with. If you were buying a car and you said to the seller "I'll give you $5000" and the seller says "deal", you can't simply hop in the car and drive off without making payment. It is clearly the intent of the seller that he will only relinquish ownership upon completion of the contract (payment).

Referring to the SoGA -

For the purpose of ascertaining the intention of the parties regard is to be had to the terms of the contract, the conduct of
the parties, and the circumstances of the case.

[*crikey*mate*]

thanks coast golf - I think LOL

but because I learned that ownership passed on formation, it was always my expectation that this is when ownership passed (I'm falling asleep too I was supposed to be in bed 6 hours ago LOL and I'm an old lady!) and I am a buyer and a seller. so isn't that my intention?

but ok

CATS - ON THIS PART (and this part only) I will admit and concede I WAS WRONG (but I still don't understand why)

Spoiler

so why do I have to insure a house once I sign the contract vs when it is settled if I don't own it? runs away from cats very very fast

[colic2bullsgirlore]

So I could add "immediate payment required' as a term of sale on all my listings whether Auction or not without using

the ebay tool and if a buyer made the commitment to pay I could still readvertise the item until payment was made.

Just because ebay want me to offer only paypal for immediate payment required listings when I use their "immediate

payment tool" does not mean I cannot require immediate payment as a TOS whether I use the ebay tool or not or

whether I offer other modes of payment.

I note some on the boards have  opined that if you use the require immediate payment option you will never have

another non paying bidder which is not the case at all. a buyer could promise to pay but still never pay.

If you would like to know what type of terms of sale general auctions employ then try the link. You could set up your

own ebay "auction style format" (that's not an auction) with some of the same terms after adjusting them to suit some

ebay policies.

http://www.pickles.com.au/about/terms-and-conditions/au/nsw/all-excluding-wagga-wagga-rundles

6. Risk Falls With The Hammer

(a)    The Purchaser assumes all risk in relation to a Lot from the fall of the hammer in respect of that Lot, and neither the Auctioneer nor the Seller will be accountable for any deficiency damage or loss to the Lot which may arise, occur, or become apparent thereafter.

(b)    The Purchaser agrees to release and indemnify the Auctioneer and Seller from any claim, action, Tribunal or court proceeding in respect of any such deficiency or damage and to indemnify the Auctioneer, on a full indemnity basis, from all liability, including all costs incurred by it in relation to any such claim.

7. Payment upon completion of sale

(a)    The Purchaser is not entitled to remove the Lot from the Auction Site until the Purchase Price has been paid in full.

(b)    The Purchaser of a Lot must pay the Purchase Price, or a deposit as agreed by the Auctioneer, to the Auctioneer upon completion of the Auction Sale.

(c)    If the Purchaser pays a deposit, it must pay the balance of the Purchase Price within 1 day of completion of the Auction Sale or as otherwise specified by the Auctioneer.

(d)    Payment of the above must be in cash unless otherwise agreed by the Auctioneer. If payment is made by cheque and the cheque is dishonoured, the Purchaser will be deemed to be in fundamental breach of its obligations pursuant to these Terms and Conditions.

(e)    In the event of late payment the Auctioneer reserves the right to charge the Purchaser interest which will accrue at the rate of the lower of 2% of the Purchase Price per month or the highest rate allowed by law.

[colic2bullsgirlore]

If a seller includes a clause in their contract of sale as ebay has done in their user agreement you can define which state's

SOG act the sale will be governed by just delete a few bits and substitute "purchase" for agreement and "all bidders" for

All members of this Site

This Agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the State of New South Wales, Australia. All members of this Site irrevocably submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of New South Wales, Australia.

The provisions of this Agreement are severable, and if any provision of this Agreement is held to be invalid or unenforceable, such provision may be removed and the remaining provisions shall be enforced.

[millyswardrobe5]

So you're telling me that a buyer can bid on an item, make out they are wanting to buy it and refuse to pay or pick up. They can threaten a seller into changing a unpaid item case as they want they want the item but refuse still refuse to pay or pick up because they feel obligated to. They can agree to cancel the transaction and leave negative feedback. That's wrong! eBay shouldn't allow buyers to threaten sellers so they can play by their rules behave inappropriately and take no responsibility for their actions. Instead when a buyer doesn't get what they want they can blame the seller because they feel the World owes them.

[kate399]

Wow ! I didn't realise that I needed a law degree to buy or sell on eBay. How can you make it so complicated that you need 5 pages of legal argument over a problem that happens every day on both eBay & in B&M stores with buyers who promise to pay but have no intention of ever doing so or who are so demanding that it makes it much easier to walk away from the sale than put up with their arrogant attitude.                                                                                                                                                                                        Good on you OP. Don't put yourself out any longer with this buyer.Relist the item as soon as you can & I hope someone else comes along soon with the right attitude about buying on eBay.

[bluelillypilly]

---

@colic2bullsgirlore wrote:

---

@my*mum wrote:

---

@colic2bullsgirlore wrote:

glad the penny had dropped for you too

If the seller states in their sellers terms and conitions on ebay that

# Titles to the goods purchased by you remain with us until you have paid for them.  Once the goods are paid for in full, the title will pass to you. .

# Risk in the goods passes to you when the goods are taken from storage at our warehouse for delivery to you.  We recommend that you insure the goods until delivery to you.

When does the title change hands?

It is dependant upon the terms and conditions the seller has applied to the sale

---

I am happy to be proven wrong, but I do not believe that a seller's terms and conditions can trump the law, So, if you can show me where the law says this is OK, I will concede.

---

Crikey it's not the point that "does a sellers terms and conditions trump australian law the point of my post is that the

unique terms and conditions a seller applies to their listings form part of the contract.

If you search terms and conditons on ebay and tick include description you will find 8.5 million items with mostly unique terms of sale like

ebay sale live (right now) sellers terms and conditons

All grading in our lots only represent our opinion and does not represent any third party grading. And we will not guarantee that same or similar grading will be achieved from any other party.**IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH OUR GRADING , DESCRIPTION or SALES CONDITIONS:PLEASE DO NOT BID

Fully refundable, if item is not as described. Save on postage by combining your purchase, all items offered in Australian Dollars with payment required no later than 3 days.   Items SOLD AS IS AND ITEMS BEGINNING WITH 0.99C AUCTIONS ARE NOT REFUNDABLE


While ****** package items carefully, ****** assume no liability for loss or damage during shipping. If you are concerned, please contact us before shipment to arrange insurance, which will be an additional cost.

Terms of Sale

****** do not make any guarantees on the functionality or compatibility of item unless other wise stated.

****** will not be held liable for any incidental or consequential damages related to the use or misuse of this item under any circumstances.

By bidding on this item, you are verifying that you have fully read, understood and agreed to the terms and conditions of this auction.

A bid is legally binding and any non-paying bidder will be reported to eBay.

Purchase with postage (Express Shipping) with tracking and signature. This option will include postal insurance, and will cover your item lost or damaged in transit. If insurance cover is not purchased (Standard Postage) with or without tracking and signature ******* do not take any responsibility for damage or lost in transit.


Whether the terms of sale are lawful or not can only be tested by australian law which certainly does not mean that

terms and conditions trump australian law just that they if tested be poroven to be within the law.

In fact many sellers comply with Australian law by addressing the SOGA in their terms of sale by specifying exactly

when the item title changes from seller to buyer.

---

 Negative feedback will be left and ****** reserves the right to take any other action that can be taken.

One thing wrong with this - a seller cannot leave negative feed back. I have 2 items "on hold" waiting for payment at the moment. If it arrives as promised it will be 10 days from date of sale ,and waiting around for nothing. Except for very bulky items I am removing the pickup option - it is more trouble than wrapping up a parcel and going to the post. If I thought they would read it would also add that some pickups cost more to the buyer in petrol than the postage would !!

I know it has been said before but oh how I wish Ebay would have some listing that aerts sellers to buyers who have a poor record. Giving them all 100% is just a joke.

[zigzagdot]

Wow ! I didn't realise that I needed a law degree to buy or sell on eBay. How can you make it so complicated that you need 5 pages of legal argument over a problem that happens every day on both eBay & in B&M stores with buyers who promise to pay but have no intention of ever doing so or who are so demanding that it makes it much easier to walk away from the sale than put up with their arrogant attitude. 

Authentic eBay legalities is not necessarily reflected in forums.      When I need legal advice about eBay matters, I fire up Customer Support and chat to an eBay representative.   I have found eBay Customer Service very reliable, highly professional.