Can you provide video evidence that you've posted an item?

[amcamari]

Some of the items I sell are posted without tracking. If I record on video me putting the item in the envelope (with the correct recipient shown on the front), sealing the envelope, and then posting the envelope (again, showing the recipient's address on the front), can the footage be used as proof of postage if a buyer claims that they didn't receive it?

Has anyone else tried this?

In an ideal world I'd send everything with tracking... but the extra postage cost would make the sale of these items unviable.

[cq_tech]

As I have mentioned in here on numerous occasions now, it has long since been established that Paypal will accept a photograph of a PO-cancelled stamped envelope as proof of posting (and therefore proof of delivery under the deeming law), which is why I take a photo with my mobile phone's camera of every large letter I post, as most of my items are sent that way.

The staff at my local LPO are pretty good and don't mind cancelling the postage stamps with their PO stamp prior to my photographing every untracked item that I lodge over the counter, and even think it's a really good idea. I've not had an INR since doing so, but I know for a fact that if a buyer was to claim non-delivery, a copy of the image of their cancelled letter is sufficient evidence to have their claim rejected in my favour, and the same should apply with eBay as well, no matter how hard they try to worm their way out of it. Contrary to what they may believe, eBay are not above the law in this country.

[cherry*135]

Buyers have a choice now when they have an issue with a transaction - open a Paypal case OR an eBay MBG case.

With the Ebay money back guarantee, for an item not received claim, if seller doesn't have a tracking number to upload, then they have no chance of not being held responsible.

Even if they had a tracking number, but AP staff failed to scan it, the sellers have been required to refund buyers for missing parcels.

Following is from an eBay email.

Information, such as the below, must be in the eBay system to be accessible to your buyer to facilitate a good buying experience:
- shipping carrier tracking
Etc

In the future, you can avoid a 1, DSR for SHIP TIME if:
· Use a valid tracking option and upload that tracking information within 1 business day of payment.
· Tracking reassures buyers about where there item is and reinforces the seller's effort to get this item to them as soon as possible.

[cherry*135]

If the buyer who didn't receive their parcel is from another country, then that countries eBay policies apply, not EBay au policies.

[cherry*135]

eBay money back guarantee

What will be accepted as proof of delivery?

If a buyer opens a request about an item they haven't received, you can resolve the request by providing proof of delivery.

We ask you to provide tracking information that shows:

The delivery status of the item as delivered.

The date of delivery (which shows you sent the item within your stated handling time).

The buyer's address, displaying at least the town/city or postal code of the address shown on either the Order Details page or PayPal's Transaction Details page.

For items valued at $750 or more, proof of the recipient's signature.

[tall_bearded01]

Sorry but I disagree.

As far as I can see, there is nothing in the Guarantee which could be construed to mean that a seller has contracted out of their deemed delivery rights, and the mere fact that some untrained and unqualified staffer in some off shore call centre simply can’t get their head around the concept that handing the item to the carrier has the same legal effect as handing it the buyer, doesn’t translate into an inference that the seller has contracted out of their deemed delivery rights.  In any event one cannot contract out of rights conferred statute by stealth.  That is, if it were the intention to the Guarantee that sellers contract out of their deemed delivery rights, then the Guarantee must not expressly say so, and it doesn’t, but also must provide the seller with a benefit of equal or greater value that the right relinquished, and again it doesnt.

So the question is, how do you dispute?

 In the initial instance I was of the view that the only way to do that was by following the US example where sellers are revoking the consents for eBay to deduct monies from their PayPal account thus forcing the dispute into the civil courts.  But it appears, because the way the legal system works  here, here may be another, simpler, way.  That is, firstly appeal eBay’s on the grounds that deemed delivery has been proved and as such no right to recovery exists, and at the same time tell PayPal you disagree with eBay’s decision and why.  Then if eBay find that a right of recovery exists and PayPal hand over the money, then you have a decision you can bring before the FOS – PayPal’s decision that eBay was correct when it found that a right to recover existed.  

Then once the FOS door is open, you can introduce such issues as, eBay’s decision is invalid because Guarantee falls within the definition of insurance and eBay is not a licenced to provide insurance services in Australia.

[digital*ghost]

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@am*3 wrote:
Buyers have a choice now when they have an issue with a transaction - open a Paypal case OR an eBay MBG case.

With the Ebay money back guarantee, for an item not received claim, if seller doesn't have a tracking number to upload, then they have no chance of not being held responsible.

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That's not the point at all. As I said, but to clarify it even further, there is a difference between being responsible and being forced to pay. 

There is also a difference between legal responsibilities, moral and/or ethical responsibilities (a personal thing), and customer expectations / practicalities (eg as I have stated on numerous occasions, I effectively practiced eBay's MBG years before it was introduced).

Don't forget, even with eBay's MBG, if an item shows as delivered but in actual fact the buyer never received it (which does happen), the seller won't be held "responsible", by eBay or PayPal. 

[digital*ghost]

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@digital*ghost wrote:

For eBay, pretty much no chance, but there are sellers who have used video evidence to establish not only proof of postage, but that the item was received, but they lost the case because the seller showed video evidence to PayPal proving that all items were packed).

I don't know how common it is for video evidence to be submitted and / or accepted, but the answer to your questions is definitely not a categoric "no" as far as PayPal are concerned. 

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Just realised I inadvertently removed a chunk of this post when I was trying to edit a spelling error....

It should have read:

there are sellers who have used video evidence to establish not only proof of postage, but that the item was received as described, (in the specific case I'm referring to, the buyer claimed that not all items were received, but they lost the case because the seller showed video evidence to PayPal proving that all items were packed

[lovedvds2013]

Hi Just to let you know eBay even with proof of postage and tracking and eBay still gave the refund and billed me.I posted regerested mail.They said they never signed for someone else did and it hurt.I will pay my eBay fees but wont be paying that they can bar me.I even appeal it and they said sorry its closed. too much **bleep** now even if you try it don't seam to work.I never had a problem till November now I don't care.

[negron18]

I know for international postage you have to provide proof of postage and delivery. It has to be via an online tracking system. I have submitted photo evidence in the past of air mail postage numbers along with corresponding receipts with the air mail postage transaction number but to no avail.

It's a bit of a joke when the seller is responisble for delivery we might as well just deliver the items in our own transport because technically this is the only fool proof way of guaranting that the parcel has reached its destination. In the end under ebays eyes we are responsible for what happens to the parcel when its in the hands of Australia Post, i'm sure this can't possibly be legal. 

  Catch 22 also which has been mentioned, if a dodgy aus post courrier marks of online that the parcel has been delivered which has happened in the past then the buyer is left with no help from ebay as the parcel has been marked as delivered even if they have not received it. In this case the buyer has to lodge a complaint with aus post and wait for an outcome.

If using Australia Post and you are sending nationally all parcels will be given an instant online tracking number which is on your receipt and next to it the weight of the item and most cases also the postcode. This should be enough proof of postage to cover you for postage returns via ebays policy. If you want to be extra careful then pay the extra $4 i think it is and send it registered, so it has to be signed on the other end to be received.

Other cases such as item not as described or damaged in transit etc, will mostly always go in favour of the seller.

This new system will make it harder for sellers who sell low cost items, eg dvds etc, that are thin, light weight and don't have to send as a parcel but rather still in an envelope and then being wary of the lost or the non received claim that may go against them.

[clarry100]

The way I understand it is that under Australia Consumer Law (which ebay Australia must adhere to) that you are only required to show proof of lodgement with the carrier (in this case Australia Post) and the item is then deemed to have been delivered to the buyer.

I can't see that with tracking, as you said you have, that you could possibly lose this case.

This is against the law for them to find against you.

You need to present a case to either the ACCC or the Financial Ombudsamn Service (FOS).

This stuff is plain wrong. It makes me feel angry too.

I would be calling them back, despite them saying case closed, and just inform them that you are aware of your legal rights under consumer law and that you will be preparing a case with ACCC and/or FOS. Ask to speak with a supervisor too.