I URGE EVERYONE TO COMMENT ON THIS

[lanplus_australia]

Hi, all,

Thanks for looking this. It's a long story so hopefully you will not get bored.

Here is what happened:

20th Oct, buyer ordered Item from us (4x Panasonic 18650 cells)

21st Oct, we sent out the order via Fastway.

23rd Oct, buyer sent an email requesting us to take the item back from Fastway and resend it via Australia Post, and also threatened us to leave negative feedback if we refuse to do that.

24th Oct, we contacted eBay customer service and a gentlemen confirmed that "Standard Delivery" can be either courier or Australia Post which is at seller's discretion. So we replied to the buyer and suggested him to wait for the delivery from Fastway. If there is any issue by Fastway, we are happy to resend the order by Australia Post.

25th Oct, buyer replied and insisted us to take the item back from Fastway and resend it via Australia Post, and threatened us the 2nd time with the negative feedback.

26th Oct, we informed buyer that Fastway has dropped off the parcel to a Parcel Connect Agent and he can collect it from there.  Buyer did that but replied to us saying he will report us to eBay to close our account. And on the same day, he opened a return request saying the item he received is fake.

27th Oct, we replied to the return request asking for photo of the item he received, and also a link of an forum demonstrating how to spot fake Panasonic batteries

28th Oct, buyer replied saying he will report us to Panasonic and Victoria Police and refused to send any photo.

1st Nov, buyer opened a case. eBay put the case on hold and asked us the seller to facilitate a return.

2nd Nov, we sent buyer a prepaid return label to return the label and also sent message to inform the buyer.

3rd Nov, buyer replied saying "Panasonic and Police are getting our clone (fake) batteries." We contacted eBay customer service again to provide the tracking number of return label and was told that if the buyer refused to return the item, the case will be decided in our favor.

8th Nov, eBay closed the case and issued a full refund to the buyer because "we received documentation from the buyer that confirms the item is hazardous to post. The buyer will not be asked to return the item to you"

9th Nov, we submitted an appeal and it's declined straight away without a reason.


Here are our questions, and eBay never answeres them directly:

1,  the buyer initially insisted us to send his order by Australia Post and even threatened us with negative feedback if we did not do as he requested, but he later on managed to find something to prove that the item is not accepted by Australia Post.  Doesn't that sound ironic to you???

2 we are not sure which documentation the buyer has submitted to prove that Australia Post does not accept Lithium batteries, however we have confirmed with Australia Post that they do accept Lithium batteries based on some conditions:
  
      a, Check that the amount of lithium in the battery is not more than the permitted amount. This is an aggregate of
          2grams/lithium metal (non-rechargeable) battery or 100 Watt-Hour/lithium ion (Li-ion rechargeable) batteries. Most
           lithium batteries used in consumer electronic devices will not contain more than the allowed amounts.

           Our batteries are Panasonic 3.7V 3400mAh (3.4Ah) which equals to 12.58 Watt-Hour (far less than 100 Watt-Hour limit)

       b, Package the item properly. Batteries must be packaged so that they are protected from damage or short circuit.

           We always pack our batteries with bubble wrap, polyform and cardboard boxes.

       c, Send your package as a parcel and put a Road Transport Only sticker or clearly write Road Transport Only on the package next                 to the delivery address

           All the standard service provided by eParcel are with Road Transport. Only Express Post to some certain areas will be carried with  Air Freight. The return label we sent to the customer is for standard service, so it can be used to send Lithium batteries.And             actually we are sending average 50 Lithium batteries daily via Australia Post.

All the information can be found from Australia Post website link below:
          https://auspost.com.au/parcels-mail/postage-tips-guides/dangerous-prohibited-items

We have sent all these info to eBay but they simply ignored it.

Being a seller on eBay for more than 10 years and this is the very first time I felt being treated so unfairly.

I would like to know what you guys' thought about this and I am open to any suggestions!

Thanks in advance!

Tyrone from LANplus Australia 

[clarry100]

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@springyzone wrote:

I think the buyer is just finding a way to get back at you-sounds like a lot of anger there. Not sure you can win except you probably could get the feedback removed, as others mentioned.

Off the track a little but as a buyer, if i read your shipping conditions it would put my back up to tell the truth.

This stuff about how you will accept no responsibility if items aren't insured-I am not sure how well that would stand up.

If I didn't get my item, or if my item was damaged in the post, I'd still be putting in a claim.

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I agree with this.

Those kinda words in your terms and conditions serve no real positive purpose.

If an item does not arrive or it arrives damaged in transit then the buyer has a perfect right to open a claim for Item Not Received (INR) or Item Not As Described (INAD). Regardless of any words like this in your terms and conditions you will still be forced to refund or replace by any ebay or paypal formal claim.

You can say that you do not accept returns. However, this condition only applies to returns that fall under the classification of buyer remorse. eg they changed their mind or they simply do like the colour or something like that.

So these kinda words are better left out so you don't get you buyer offside up front.

[englishrosegardens]

It's a policy violation for a seller to say they're not responsible for goods that don't arrive or aren't insured.  I hit the back button pretty fast when I see such statements because it means the seller doesn't care much about their buyers.  It won't stop scammers but is more likely to invite them (to prove the seller wrong), so there's no point in saying it.

[thecatspjs]

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@englishrosegardens wrote:

It's a policy violation for a seller to say they're not responsible for goods that don't arrive or aren't insured.  I hit the back button pretty fast when I see such statements because it means the seller doesn't care much about their buyers.  It won't stop scammers but is more likely to invite them (to prove the seller wrong), so there's no point in saying it.

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Can you please provide a link to the policy that disallows sellers from including terms and conditions that pretty much reflect Aust law that it is usually the purchaser that carries the risk when goods are in transit (with some exceptions of course).

Thank you

[thecatspjs]

OP have you actually spoken with anyone at eBay.

If you haven't my advice is to get on the phone - request to speak to a supervisor or have one call you back and ask them to explain their actions and decisions in detail.

At all time keep your cool - even if they say ridiculous things.  

[englishrosegardens]

I haven't got time to look properly just at the moment, but I have seen it before.  I did find this:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/pay/shipping-problems.html

Even if you didn't insure the item, you're still responsible for the item until the buyer receives it.

[thecatspjs]

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@englishrosegardens wrote:

I haven't got time to look properly just at the moment, but I have seen it before.  I did find this:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/pay/shipping-problems.html

Even if you didn't insure the item, you're still responsible for the item until the buyer receives it.

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Seems to just be a statement that supports the eBays Money Back Guarantee which attempts to try and interfere in contracts made under Australia law, to unlawfully impose additonal obligations on sellers - such as proof of delivery..

eBay cannot cannot remove a sellers legal rights nor obligations as a consumer of its service through its terms and conditions.  Australian Consumer Law makes that very clear.  

It always saddens to me see some posters adopt eBay speak and seek to deter others from properly understanding their rights in particular situations - including this one.

[max-power-models]

Reply to the neg feedback, warning sellers about this loony you had todeal with.

"Sellers beware buyer makes threating and  extorting emails." 

[digital*ghost]

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@englishrosegardens wrote:

I haven't got time to look properly just at the moment, but I have seen it before.  I did find this:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/pay/shipping-problems.html

Even if you didn't insure the item, you're still responsible for the item until the buyer receives it.

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Up until recently, it was noted in the 'Selling Practices' page of eBay, however it's not there anymore, it seems to be suffering the same fate as the fabled "not allowed to list items elsewhere" policy (that one is currently 'not allowed to say you're selling it elsewhere')  - it stipulated a similar thing, i.e. that seller's were not able to make statments in their listing that indicated they wouldn't be held responsible for lost or damaged mail (which is distinctly different from the statement you did find, that one goes - or at the very least, attempts to go - quite a few steps further). 

[clarry100]

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@englishrosegardens wrote:

I haven't got time to look properly just at the moment, but I have seen it before.  I did find this:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/pay/shipping-problems.html

Even if you didn't insure the item, you're still responsible for the item until the buyer receives it.

---

To my way of interpreting the Australia Consumer Law (ACL) Sale of Goods Act (SOGA) once the item has been provably lodged with a carrier the item is deemed to have been delivered to the buyer. If this is true then a lodgement scan showing at least the buyers suburb/postcode is all that is required as is the case accepted by PayPal. Under their MBG Ebay seem to have taken that outside the ACL by requiring proof of delivery.

In section 34 of the QLD SOGA in part it states....

34 Delivery to carrier

(1) When, in pursuance of a contract of sale, the seller is authorised or required to send the goods to the buyer, delivery of the goods to a carrier, whether named by the buyer or not, for the purpose of transmission to the buyer is prima facie deemed to be a delivery of the goods to the buyer.

QLD SOGA Para 34