why sellers on ebay do not create their own association to protect and promote their rights?

[tall_bearded01]

I’m not brassed off. I’m a retired advocate with time on my hands, who believes sellers have rights.

[antonios7529]

thank you for your advice that Australia is a free country and I can sell any where I want.

But you forgot that the thread is about the creation of sellers association.

You have right the Australia is a free, democratic country which respect fundamental democratic rights and international law!

In Australia the right for free creation of Associations is protected from Australian law and the international law which is strongest from the Australian law. 

Than any agreement, any contract is elegal if it  violates the right of free creation of associations.

[horizon1907]

To put it another way. It is ebays platform. You play by their rules or don't play at all. That's it in a Nutshell. "No, and if's or buts".

[tall_bearded01]

I really get sick of hearing the overly simplistic “its eBay’s site. They make the rules. Therefore abide by them or leave”.

The eBay User Agreement is a contract between eBay and the seller, but not, due to a lack of consideration, between the eBay and the buyer. And like any contract it, creates obligation which are binding on both parties. I say again BOTH parties.

Take for instance the returns component of the Money Back Guarantee which forms part of that Agreement which states that returns are limited to goods which eBay determines are not as described. So what are the respective rights and obligations in connection with this aspect of the contract?

The seller’s obligations are – if eBay determines they are not as described, they are required to accept the return of the goods. They are also required to pay the return postage and are required to reimburse eBay the cost of the claim.

As for eBay, they are required under the contract to, conduct a bona-fide instigation, with any determination being based on actual facts which lead to a reasonable conclusion that the goods complained of are in fact not as described. That is, the contract creates a specific obligation on eBay to take reasonable steps to ensure that the buyer is not attempting to manipulate the Guarantee to return unwanted goods which are in fact as described; and, if some of the threads on these boards is anything to by, this is not happening. eBay is also required, under the contract, to ensure that no refund is payable until the actual goods purchased are confirmed as having been returned, but again, the indications are that, in some instances, refunds are being made before the goods have been returned.

The point. This is Australia, and in Australia we have specific laws governing what can and can’t be included in a contract, especially where one of the parties is of unequal bargaining power, and/or the contract involves the contracting out of a right conferred by statute. So yes it is eBay’s site, but not only are there limitations as to what they can be include in the contract, but also the seller  has a right to expect that they, eBay, will comply with the obligations they themselves created by bring the contract (Guarantee) into existence, and if they don’t, the seller, has every right to complain to that/those statutory authority/authorities which have the ability to do something about it.

That is there is no such thing as a one side contract.

[character_parties_aus]

Interesting stuff well put. Of course a contract is one thing and implementation is another. How do you suggest a small sole business seller who is unhappy with the way eBay have conducted themsevles and feels cheated by the returns process tackles it with a customer service rep who can hardly speak english and is reading scripts on a screen. If the contract is not adhered to what will they do? Sue eBay?

My real world experience of contracts is that while they may say one thing but depending on the size and power of the organisation weilding the stick practical implementation in many instances is pretty much impossible.

I'm coming round to the idea of a buyers association now!

[bettyboopsadaisy]

So interesting to read your post.

I have been hoping for some time that someone with professional understanding and experience of the legal ramifications of contracts and respective obligations of the parties involved would appear with their observations on these boards.

You are a breath of fresh air !!

Many of the points your make and questions you ask have plagued me since the beginning of November, when the new policies and rules came into effect.

For instance, what is the actual criteria that ebay use to determine whether an item is in fact 'not as described' before finding in the buyer's favour - ie, on what basis do they decide that there is no reason to question the buyer's claims?

What is their actual process for investigating and determining these facts? That of course is never spelt out and you can ask ebay these simple and direct question till you are blue in the face and you will never get an answer. My belief is that the reason for this is that there is no process of investigation happening. They simply get the request for cancellation and refund from the buyer and the case is sown up from that point on - no further questions asked or investigation instigated !!

Certainly, the rapidity with which these decisions are arrived at, strongly suggest that !!

And, I have always believed that regardless of what ebay say about, 'play by our rules (which we won't even properly spell out to you) or get out, we should have the right to both stay put as ebay members and have our rights respected and acted upon.

Problem is, like the vast majority of ebay members, I am at a loss as to how to make sure that my rights are protected and test that process !!

[fixnwear]

antonions,

great idea, but maybe a bit hard to implement.

Obviously, for all the complaints about Ebay's one sided conduct - sellers are still here, selling - perfectly happy to hand the control of their busines to Ebay.

They are effectively controlling everything, how many listings one can have, what you can & can't list, they tell you weather you are a good seller or not (based on opinions of the buyers which are in 99% of the cases totally unreliable), and they are most certainly in controll of your money - they decide weather you are entitled to keep it or not!

That is not a  good situation under any circumstances, but particularly not good with a corporation that is so blatanly disregarding almost all seller's rights and costing them money in the process - for the benefit of the buyers.

That is not how it works.

I am by no means a legal expert, and I don't have to be to see that all those rules can't be possibly worth the paper they are written on - when there are thousands of more than willing participants actually obeying them nothing will change.

Not many are challenging anything - just repeating the same old, same old - "it's theitr site, their rules" as if that somehow makes it OK to be shafted.

From a buyer's point of wiev - I can't for the life of me see what is so attractive about this place -  that sellers persistantly jump over hot coals, go through all the unjust decisions...just to sell here.

If most sellers were to leave, it would need to be publiced bit time as to why exactly they are leaving, through all the media available, so that any new sellers know exactly what to expect and not even bother signing up.

Very similar to any other historical revolutions where in order to change something people had to be ready to sacrifice everything.

And all of them, not just one or two here and there.

Antonios, that is why your idea is great but very unlikely to get of the ground.

[antonios7529]

ebay should upgrade its programs if it wants ebay happy members, ebay happy sellers or buyers.
Once upon a time ebay programs were the best one on our planet, not anymore, I do not include paypal, which continues to be on the top of its kind on our planet, I mean the ebay programs.
For example today EVERY forum online, even the smallest one, have the facilities to correct orthographic mistakes, type mistakes, they have the facilities to edit your Post. even most newsparers online have those facilities.
Ebay forum does not give me the chance to correct my type mistakes and does not give me the chance to edit, correct my posts. Only one time I had this opportunity and no more!
I can not understand the ebay.
WHY?
A big, very big company with so many top programmers has left its forum with an ancient, non user friendly program.
Later I will write for the main ebay program and how it creates problems to ebay sellers.

[i-love-my-sheep]

You can edit your posts within 5 minutes of posting them. After that, they can't be edited.

[cq_tech]

antonios7529 wrote: ebay should upgrade its programs if it wants ebay happy members, ebay happy sellers or buyers.

ROTFLMMFAO!!! Are you serious? I think you'll find it's going to take a hell of a lot more than a couple of program updates to make eBay sellers happy again. At the very least, a reduction in fees, removal of the FVF on postage, cessation of the rolling blackouts and listing restrictions, and showing us a bit of respect for a change, would all go a long way to making sellers happy but I fear that will never happen. Ebay has become this century's Titanic; nothing will stop it from going under and the only thing left for its remaining sellers to do is to decide when they want to abandon this rapidly sinking ship.