on โ27-11-2012 06:25 PM
SO annoyed, shade arrived broken, seller refusing to refund, seller would't use paypal, seller reported, any suggestions on where I should go next???
on โ10-12-2012 07:10 AM
And herein is the nub of the problem...A lack of knowledge.
As the buyer owns what is being delivered, and as the seller sold the goods on the clear understanding that they will make all the necessary arrangements reasonably required to get it delivered, it is the buyer and not the seller who is in the driversโ seat when to comes to, not only by whom it is to delivered, but also how it is be delivered.
That is, when it comes to deemed delivery, the legislation contains the following subject to provision, namely - โUnless otherwise authorised by the buyer, the seller must make such contract with the carrier on behalf of the buyer as may be reasonable, having regard to the nature of the goods and the other circumstances of the caseโ
That is itโs the buyer who tells the seller if it if to be sent by receipted (registered) post or regular post, and in fact they can instruct for it to be delivered by their (the buyersโ) preferred carrier. And by including โhaving regard to the nature of the goodsโ it also places a clear onus on the seller to pack it properly so there has a โreasonableโ prospect of arriving in the condition that it was in when sent.
So if the buyer say to the seller, I want it sent by a secure means so it canโt be safe dropped (registered post), and the seller ignores that request and sends it regular post, and if the buyer says it wasnโt received but Aust Post say it was delivered, then the buyer has a right of recovery against the seller, because they (the seller) failed to make โsuch contract with the carrier on behalf of the buyer as may be reasonableโ
As for broken items, if itโs not packed in such a way as not to give a reasonable prospect of it arriving safely, and if it arrives broken, then itโs a case of failing to have โregard to the nature of the goodsโ. That is if itโs not packed properly and it arrives broken the then the buyer has a right of recovery against the seller.
Now hereโs the kicker. If the buyer says nothing, this is an implied instruction by the buyer that they have left it to the seller to make the choice on their behalf, and as long as they have made a reasonable choice, the buyer has no comeback against the seller. However, more often than not, the seller will, in their listing, give the buyer a choice. For instance, if in their listing the seller gives the buyer the option of having it delivered regular post or registered post, and if the buyer pays for regular post, this is a clear instruction by the buyer to the seller to send it regular post, and as such, the buyer assumes all risks associated with their decision.
This is why the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy contains the following exclusion provision โ โ1.6. .. If the seller presents evidence for an Item Not Received claim that they shipped the goods to your address, we may find in favour of the seller even if you did not receive the goodsโ. That is if the seller proves it was posted there is no right to recover and therefore, as PayPal Buyer Protection โis not a policy of insuranceโ, the only way the buyer is going to get their money back is if PayPal decides to make a discretionary payment, and the indications are they are becoming more and more reluctant to do so.
The point โ whether you initiate a PayPal claim of Credit Card Chargeback you need to read the fine print, and when you do, you will find that buyer protection is limited to the buyer right to recover, and, as not in all cases a right of recovery exists, if it doesnโt, all of the buyers is left with is the hope of a discretionary payment.
True power comes from knowledge and knowing how to use it
on โ10-12-2012 08:01 AM
As for broken items, if itโs not packed in such a way as not to give a reasonable prospect of it arriving safely, and if it arrives broken, then itโs a case of failing to have โregard to the nature of the goodsโ. That is if itโs not packed properly and it arrives broken the then the buyer has a right of recovery against the seller.
Now hereโs the kicker. If the buyer says nothing, this is an implied instruction by the buyer that they have left it to the seller to make the choice on their behalf, and as long as they have made a reasonable choice, the buyer has no comeback against the seller. However, more often than not, the seller will, in their listing, give the buyer a choice. For instance, if in their listing the seller gives the buyer the option of having it delivered regular post or registered post, and if the buyer pays for regular post, this is a clear instruction by the buyer to the seller to send it regular post, and as such, the buyer assumes all risks associated with their decision.
The simple fact remains, if the item arrives broken and AP deems it packed inadequately, it is the seller who packed it and therefore is responsible. No registration or insurance will cover item that is not adequately packed. registration and insurance only protect against non-delivery.
on โ10-12-2012 11:36 AM
โActually, eBay buyer can only select the offered options. It is the seller who chooses thoseโ.
Where in the in the eBay policies does it say that if you buy on eBay you waive your statutory right to tell the sell the arrangements you want made to ensure safe delivery. That is where in the policy does it say you canโt say to the seller, I want it delivered by XXXXX, this is their contact number, please find out the cost and then reconfigure you invoice, and once received, Iโll pay.
โThe simple fact remains, if the item arrives broken and AP deems it packed inadequately, it is the seller who packed it and therefore is responsible
Now by my count that is exactly what I have said at least three times in this thread.
โNo registration or insurance will cover item that is not adequately packed. registration and insurance only protect against non-deliveryโ.
You really need to understand the difference between โinsuranceโ and a โright to recoverโ. If you insure something, any risk in connection with that something has been โunderwrittenโ: that is transferred from the insured (you) to the insurer (the insurance company). Therefore if the item is insured you are entitled to be compensated for any loss or damage to the insured item irrespective of cause. That said, some insurance policies do contain exclusions. For instance your comprehensive car insurance policy may include a preclusion clause that says youโre not covered if the cause of the accident was because your capacity to drive was impaired by alcohol or drugs, or your house and contents insurance may say youโre not covered if you house is broken into and you donโt have dead locks fitted to all external doors or windows.
On the other hand a right of recover means youโre only covered if the reason why something you own was lost or damaged because of someone elseโs negligence (fault).
So letโs look at your example in light of the above,
You buy something and it arrives broken but you didnโt insure it. You take the item to Aust Post and they say sorry, it broke because it wasnโt packed properly. In such a case you have 2 alternatives. You can dispute APโs decision that it wasnโt their fault, or if you agree the packaging was inadequate, you can initiate a small claims recovery action against the seller. However, if it if arrives broken and you did insure it, you lodge a claim with the insurer who pay your claim irrespective of whose fault is, in the same way as if your car got damaged or house got broken into. Isnโt that the reason why you pay for insurance.
However, now that the claim has been paid, as far as the insurer is concerned that is not the end of the matter, because, if they establish that the loss or damage was because of someone elseโs negligence they would have a right of recovery against the negligent party, and in fact every insurance company has procedures in place which allow claims officers to identify potentially recoverable claims, and a separate department, called a Recovery Section, whoโs job it is to get the insurance companyโs money back.
That is if you are the driver of the other vehicle and the vehicle you were driving was not comprehensively insured and the accident was your fault, the other drives insurance company will pay for the repairs to the insured vehicle and then give you 30 days to pay and if payment is not received within the time allowed itโs see you in court. This is called a recovery.
If you light a fire on your property and it spreads and burns someone elseโs house down, then their insurer will pay for their house to be rebuild. and will then present you with the bill giving 30 days to pay or see you in court. This is called a recovery.
If you buy something on line and delivery is insured and it arrives damaged just as in the first two examples, the insure pays the claim, and if they are of the view that the item was damaged because the packaging was inadequate, they will then present the seller the bill giving them 30 days to pay or its see you in court. In the alternative if it was the carrier who was at fault, the recovery action is initiated against the carrier.
Finally if you buy something on line and delivery is insured and it doesnโt arrive at all, then as with the previous 3 examples, the insurer pays the claim, but this time, unless the buyer chooses a receipted delivery option, negligence would be near impossible to prove. That is the reason why no sensible insure would underwrite the risk of non receipt unless pays for the item to be sent, at the very minimum, by registered post. Registered post, not because of the inherent additional insurance cover. Registered post, because if youโre not home it canโt be placed at risk of being stolen after delivery because it was safe dropped.
The point, the words โInsuranceโ and โrecoveryโ have specific legal meanings, and those meanings seem to differ from what you appear to assume they mean, or believe they ought to mean.
on โ10-12-2012 12:05 PM
โNo registration or insurance will cover item that is not adequately packed. registration and insurance only protect against non-deliveryโ.
You really need to understand the difference between โinsuranceโ and a โright to recoverโ. If you insure something, any risk in connection with that something has been โunderwrittenโ: that is transferred from the insured (you) to the insurer (the insurance company). Therefore if the item is insured you are entitled to be compensated for any loss or damage to the insured item irrespective of cause. That said, some insurance policies do contain exclusions.
I there is a high probability that the poster was likely referring to Australia Post extra cover insurance that has quite specific exclusions.
Lol - would be delighted to know the name of an insurance company that compensates for damage or loss irrespective of cause ... please share.
on โ10-12-2012 04:07 PM
you seems to be completely ignorant as:
1.seller can dergister anytime and also open another account with different ID,simultaneously or immediately after.what do you think ebay can or will do-hang him?I know many case where seller just disappeared and as buyer below the item you will find Not registered any more.Moreover ,one can be seller and buyer through same account and how do you say seller can not deregister or just abandon the account.pls do not mislead others.
2.PP may refund only if it has sellers money or is able to recover money and not otherwise.Try losing some money in the hands of scoundrel sellers and you will know the reality
3.buyers do buying through ebay and not paypal,which effectively has no liability as it is only payment facilitator and not transaction facilitator.Your understanding and observations are like firing in the air and have no substance at all and giving excuses for ebay and paypal deliberate indulgence in cheating buyers is irresponsible act,to say the least.
And why you are hiding behind to conceal feedback comments,come in open?
on โ10-12-2012 04:21 PM
That is what many sellers are doing,charging high amount as postage,not packing properly,sending unusable/broken items or junk,if paid by paypal,ebay will handover you to its pal and that ebay pal will ask you to spend more money and return the item in the same condtion by tracable postage delivery leaving it open to seller to dispute item is not same,parts missing/used,packet was opened and repacked etc etc and paypal will shut the door on your face.Seller,ebay and paypal all are happy to share the money looted from the buyer.
Moral of the story-DO NOT BUY ANYTHING ON EBAY UNLESS YOU KNOW THE SELLER AND WHO HAS A SHOP FRONT AT A PHYSICAL LOCATION NEAR YOU.
on โ10-12-2012 05:06 PM
My house is insured with GIO who will pay out for loss or damage to my house or contents if itโs broken into, or burnt down or flooded out irrespective of whoโs in the wrong. It called a s..t happens policy.
My car is insured with the GIO who will pay out irrespective of whether the accident was my fault or not. Itโs called comprehensive insurance.
Oh by the way, my home and contents insurance covers loss or damage of things I own and take with on holidays (both local and overseas). So in a competitive insurance market, youโd be surprised, what your insurance company, will do for you when you buy on line. All you have to do is ask.
on โ10-12-2012 05:27 PM
you wrote ... "irrespective of cause"
I still don't believe that your policy covers you for all causes of loss or damage.-
I believe that in their terms and conditions GIO will not only spell out what events that cause the loss will be covered, it will also mention a list of exclusions including a range of criminal acts such as fraud where you (or persons known to you) intentionally destroy your own goods for the purposes of claiming etc etc
on โ10-12-2012 05:58 PM
The only thing that excludes coverage under my house and content policy is if deadlocks are not fitted to all external doors and windows or if I deliberately cause the damage to claim the insurance.
That is if someone I know, without my consent cause the damage Iโm covered.
If someone breaks in Iโm covered.
If lightning strikes and my house burnt down Iโm covered.
If I burn off the back block and it gets out of hand and my house burns down I'm covered.
If my creek breaks it banks and my house floods Iโm covered,
If Iโm on holidays and I drop my digital SLR or its stolen it covered.
That why I insure. That is if s..t happens Iโm covered.
on โ10-12-2012 06:34 PM
Thank you for acknowledging that there are some causes that you are not covered for in your insurance policy.
Other causes of loss and damage frequently excluded by many insurance policies include certain types of storm damage, acts of war, terrorist events and "existing" damage,
If you review the post you made in relation to insurance carefully, you may find on review, as I have, that there are several sweeping statements that are not factual.
They certainly may apply, depending on the insurer and the particular policy, but equally they may not.
