Seller sent what I'm pretty sure are counterfeit shoes, what are my chances of getting a refund.?

[hellogoodbuy_au]

So I bought a pair of shoes from the UK.  I was VERY confident with sizing because I have a pair that I bought from an actual store here in Melbourne.  They should have been the same.  They were a couple of seasons ago and I can't get the originals here anymore so I bought from the UK.

Anyway, even though the sizing is marked as exactly as my pair.... I DID NOT make a mistake... they are at least 1.5 sizes too small.  So that got me thinking.  This brand would have very good quality control, this really whacked sizing is a red flag to being fakes.

So I notice a couple of other differences, and I am also now convinced that they are not genuine leather.

The seller accepts returns for change of mind, but I feel I did not make a mistake with sizing so I don't think I should pay the return post, which is about $25.  So I opened a case NAD stating that they are not leather and not genuine.  The seller is a fairly big player I think, and they state they have documentation to show they are genuine from the company (but haven't shown it to me).  But they haven't accepted the return yet.  I didn't dare mention about the sizing.  How is this going to play out if I escalate?  

Even if they are genuine, I don't think I could even sell these on, the sizing is so out.

[digital*ghost]

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@lyndal1838 wrote:

If you want to win a dispute on the grounds of them being fake you will need to get a letter from an authorised third party stating that fact and submit it with your claim.

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Especially if the seller does indeed have documentation from their supplier showing they source from the real brand and have supplied that to eBay. (This alone does not prove that the shoes you received are genuine, but it puts them in good stead if the documentation is uncontested).  

The reality is that if the claim is ultimately found in your favour without that documentation, you will be asked to return the shoes via a tracked method. Officially, if a buyer wins a not as described claim, the seller is meant to be responsible for return postage, but it is very difficult to enforce that if the seller is unwilling, particularly when dealing with a seller located overseas. (Tracked postage to the UK starts at about $30 for a 500g parcel via Aus Post, not too sure on the pricing for weights above that, but it's on the expensive side). If you have the documentation, though, eBay's policy (under their MBG) is actually that they do not require you to return them. 

[enigmabear]

"You don't think there are grounds for saying that the sizing is wrong, given I have another exact same pair for comparison?  That is concrete evidence that they are not the correct size, yes?"

No, not really. EITHER or both of the pairs of shoes could have been mismarked in the manufacturing

At the end of the day, it is not about what anyone here thinks when it comes to getting a refund, it is up to ebay

IF the listing said size 40 and on the shoes it says size 40, ebay are not going to consider them not as described based on size

If you open a dispute based on them being fake leather, as already said, ebay require you to provide proof of such, just as ebay would want proof if someone reported that a coin/watch/gold or anything else was fake. They do not just take a buyer's word that 'this item is  fake" alone

You don't need to be out of pocket, you can submit your proof they are fakes once you have it in writing or you can sell them yourself 

Not saying it is fair, unfair or any opinion on that matter, merely saying what ebay (in all likelyhood) will tell you

[gutterpunkz05]

Another buyer who never makes a mistake!  You have made one giant mistake  of accusing a seller of fraud (your report to ebay)

without any proof,  And not including your concerns about the size in your original report.

Your original post in both  heading and content, only confirms that you have no proof the item is fake.  ("I'm pretty sure")  is

dangerous ground when making such serious accusations against a seller.

[hellogoodbuy_au]

Yar, well the quality to my other pair is really really different. These are awful.

The problem is, I don't think I can sell them on without a huge loss.  I would love to, it would be so much easier, there's even stock photos (which I can use because they are new in box).  I buy clothing online all the time and sell it on if it doesn't suit - often for a tidy profit ,but not necessarily. 

But these are just terrible, and I would have to state something like "labelled a size 40 but really more like a 37..." That's a loss right there - I'd be assuming they were fake if I read that in a shoe listing too.

Ick, it wasn't my mistake but I'm out of pocket either way. 

I agree I'll never win a dispute on sizing which is why I didn't play that card yet.  But I might now cos I've got nothing to lose anyway. I think my If I'm going to be $30+ down already I would be better trying to on sell then pay for return post.  

I'm a little surprised at the responses here TBH, no one has yet berated me for expecting cheap (semi) high-end shoes to be anything but knock-offs.  😛

[digital*ghost]

I think you've overlooked what the actual bone of contention here is - as I mentioned, no one here can guess with any degree of confidence, whether the shoes are genuine or knock-offs. What they are saying (or at least, what I was was trying to) is that the discrepancies you've pointed out don't make it an open and shut case. What you have from the perspective of what's been presented in this thread, actually just amounts to suspicion, and when that's all you've got, it's reasonable to point out that suspicion doesn't = fact. 

As I mentioned in my first post, Docs is a classic example of a brand - well-known for quality - selling out, and cheaping out. They made a name for themselves by crafting well made leather shoes that could quite literally last a lifetime if cared for properly, or 5-10 years with harder use. Now, they're designing, making and selling for fashion, and it's quite common for them to fall apart after only a year or two. This kind of thing happens all the time, and is quite feasible to have occurred in the time since you bought the other pair. 

Does the brand have a UK website, does it list the measurements for the size there? Do they match the measurements for the pair you received? Are there any others complaining online about the decline in quality of that particular brand? etc

[lyndal1838]

The title of this thread indicates that you are "pretty sure" the shoes are counterfeit and "What are my chances of getting a refund?"

You have been told what your chances are of getting a refund and how to go about convincing ebay that you should get a refund.

It is not up to anyone here to say whether you should get a refund....it is ebay that you need to convince.

[hellogoodbuy_au]

All true, thanks for your replies.

I can't escalate til the 4th, if I go that far.  I'll check in and let you know how it goes

[brerrabbit585]

The quality of leather varies vastly, along with what can be called leather.  For the last 4 years or so I've exclusively worn fairly expensive Homy Ped shoes in a certain style because of foot problems.  They're supposed to be leather but while they look like it, they're an extremely poor quality leather.  It's just an extremely thin layer of leather stuck on top of some sort of artificial lining and after a while it starts to peel off.  Before I found these I had an older pair of homy peds that were much better quality leather.  I daresay 20 or 30 years they would probably have been made with what I call 'real leather' - leather that's had nothing done to it except tanning and dying.  I was told by a tannery owner over 40 years ago (I used to make leather bags) that a lot of leather products coming out of Asia have had the leather spliced (cut into two layers) so that it's not as thick, but this weakens the leather.

I used to wear a certain style of Grosby shoes year after year but then they changed the type of leather and it was harder/stiffer and less flexible.  Any shoe company can make changes to their shoes, including the same style of shoe, so just because the leather in yours is 'different' to what you bought two years ago it doesn't automatically mean the shoes are fake.  Suppliers can go out of business or the company will just decide to find a cheaper source of leather.

When it comes to shoes and clothes online, never assume anything, especially if you're hoping to buy something the same as what you bought in the past!  About five years ago I bought what I thought was the exact same style of shoe online that I'd previously bought in a b&m shop but I couldn't wear the second pair.  It wasn't the seller's fault that I didn't get exactly the same pair of shoes I'd had previously - they listed exactly what they had and the risk was mine so I had to wear the loss.  

There's always an element of risk in buying clothes and shoes sight unseen, but claiming the shoes are fake in order to avoid mentioning the size issue makes you no better than what you're accusing the seller of.

[brerrabbit585]

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@hellogoodbuy_au wrote:

PJ, I think you missed my point entirely.  

I already have the exact same shoes I bought in Australia at a shop.

I bought a second pair because I love them so much and mine are getting worn to death.  I bought the exact same size of the exact same shoe marked 40 ON THE SHOE.

Don't you think it's reasonable to expect the fit of the same shoe to be the same?  Or am I missing something?  I can't get my feet into these ones without scrunching my toes up and they are far too tight across the top.  These aren't the same size as my first pair even though they are labelled the same.  My first pair never felt like this.

Also the leather is really different.  It's hard, it doesn't have the pimpling, it's not sueded on the inside like the other pair (which is a classic sign of fake leather), they don't absorb water (my orignials do). Not willing to try the burn test.

So if he sizing is so out, isn't NAD reasonable? They might be mislabelled for all I know.

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You said in an earlier post that the shoes are at least 1.5 sizes too small (meaning smaller than the size that's written on them, and than your original pair).  If they were that much smaller I very much doubt that you'd be able to get your feet in them at all.  I wear size 7.5 and I know there's absolutely no way I could get my feet into size 6.5 in the same style shoe, let alone into a size 6.

I think half a size difference due to changes in manufacturing and materials isn't too unrealistic.  There's a good reason that b&m shops offer fitting services and that most shops actually expect people to try shoes on before they buy them.  Very minor differences in shoes can have a huge impact on the fit and comfort of them so buying online is always going to have an element of risk involved and buyers need to accept that risk or not buy. 

As someone else pointed out, your original pair could have been mislabelled, so how can you use that to accuse the seller of selling fakes?