Buyer Gave Neg Unfairly

[21ladyluck]

Buyer bought a puzzle from me. It's securely wrapped and put in a large envelope to keep the postage down.

So there is NO tracking unless the buyer wants to pay for a "signature", which they don't for low cost items.

I always take photos while at the post office of the buyers address and AP postage imprint.

Buyer emailed me she never got it. I sent her the photo showing it was sent and to check with the post office.

She said it was my fault as there was no tracking. That wouldn't have helped anyway as we all know. I explained why.

I said I was sorry but I'm not responsible and will not give a refund. After all, I have NO proof that she did not get it and simply wanted the money back. We all know there are some buyers like that.

So she's given me neg feedback unfairly. It's the first one I've gotten and I have over 1500 feedbacks.

How do I reply to her negative feedback to tell the truth about what happened ??

Pam

[the_billycan]

I'm with you. It is a fact of life that buyers simply will not pay what it costs to ensure delivery for cheap items. No buyer is going to pay an additional $7.00 or more for a $5.00 item and if you include that cost in the original price, it only increases eBay's profits always assuming that a buyer thinks that the $5.00 item is worth $12.00 and you can sell it at all. The best you can do is make the SOD/registraltion option available but put a GREAT BIG disclaimer that you will not be held liable once the item is posted.

On the issue of photographing your envelope with the address AND the posting label that would seem like adequate proof of posting to me. Can you other people please explain to me why anyone would pay the postage for an article and then not send it, risking their reputation and all for a $5.00 item. That would be crazy!!! I don't know what you people sell but let me tell you it does not pay to inflate the cost of cheap items with fancy posting options because they won't be taken up or the item WILL NOT SELL. 

[*crikey*mate*]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@crikey*mate wrote:

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@crikey*mate wrote:

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"I always take photos while at the post office of the buyers address and AP postage imprint."

This does not prove that you lodged or posted the item. It proves that you photographed the item whilst at the Post Office. It does not prove that you left the item there and handed it over to Aus Post for delivery.

For proof, you need a tracking number, you then need to ensure that the parcel's tracking number is scanned into Aus Post's system, i.e. "lodged" (it's not enough to just toss it into a post box as it may get lost/stolen before it is scanned)

 

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Paypal do accept a broader range of proof of post than a tracking number.

A photo at the PO of envelope with a post office post mark addressed to the buyer may or may not suffice as proof.  A mail register with post office stamp may also suffice.  It is a matter for paypal to determine according to their proof of lodgement and proof of addressee requirement. 

Whilst tracking numbers assists for proof of lodgement purpose you do not have to have a product that comes with tracking to prove lodgement ie. registered post letters and parcels that are not scanned at lodgement, but you have a stamped lodgement slip.

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and this is relevant to the OP, how?

There re a lot of mays and maybes in your contradiction response. I prefer to give advice that has the best chance of offering the seller her Seller Protection.The methods that provide her with the safest means of trading and the methods that are easiest when dealing with PayPal.

You yourself know of another member who says that their parcels are sometimes handed back to them to put in an outside post box after they have been stamped/scanned or whatever.

and doesn't a stamped lodging slip have the tracking number for a registered letter on it?

(I don't know - I used to send registered parcels a few years ago and I used to go blind on paperwork filling in all the tracking numbers to hand over to the post office for my stamp of proof of lodgement.

so in effect, you do have a tracking number and you do have proof of lodgement of the letter relevant to that tracking number which are what PayPal requires for proof of postage.

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I made my response to relation to incorrect comments that you made regarding proof of post that other posters may read.  

You do not have proof of addressee if you do not lodge registered post over the counter.  Whilst paypal may accept tracking number and mail centre scan only according to a small number of posters on the boards, nonetheless their terms and conditions are worded so as to make these two separate requirements.    Unlike other post products, registered post is not sold with tracking as a feature, notwithstanding that, is frequently scanned in any case.

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I did quantify that statement with something like "it is not enough to just toss it into a post box" I do believe I was emphasizing the need to lodge over the counter - yes - I just read back - yes I was...

and yes, they are two seperate requirements as I did state, both of which are required by PayPal for a INR, They specifically request the tracking number and unless it has been scanned into the system they cannot verify that it has been lodged. So a tracking number alone is not effective as it provides no proff that the seller did post the item, they would just have the seller's word on that.

also

"registered post is not sold with tracking as a feature"??????

REGISTERED POST

Benefits

• Proof the item was sent, when it's lodged over the counter at an Australia Post retail outlet

• Proof the item was received, with signature upon delivery and online tracking#

[*crikey*mate*]

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@crikey*mate wrote:

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@thecatspjs wrote:

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@phorum_junkie* wrote:

You have no proof you sent anything, you have proof you paid for postage but I know that my PO often give me letters back after stamping them as the box outside is going to be emptied before a pick up is made from the PO.

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How can any buyer have confidence in sellers with statements like these PJ - I am sure that you must have meant something different than it sounds - as has happened once before ?

PO returning lodged post articles outside of correct process to do so is just not on - ever. I think Australia Post made that clear the last time you posted something like this. 

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They may have made it clear, but unless PJ is making things up, it obviously has and does happen.

and I think that it is good that buyers know this can/does happen as well as Australia Post in the hopes that they will crack down on their staff.

but then, I believe in transperancy, not providing a false sense of security.

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That any seller would initiate such deceptive conduct in relation to the lodgement of a postal article and then post about it on the boards is astounding. 

Given the same poster admonishes others for far far less it sets a new height for double standards in this case, and a new low for seller performance in relation to the handling of goods for post. 

I believe most sellers would not undertake nor condone this behaviour, nor put themselves or their post office staff at potential risk of serious penalties.  

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I agree with paragraph 1, however it is good that buyers are aware that this could and does happen. not all sellers are as pure and perfect as you and I are cats, they need to know that some shomky practises do take place.

paragraph 2 - I'm not getting into an interpersonal slanging match about another poster. That's your agenda, not mine.

paragraph 3 - most probably wouldn't, but then we are all too aware that there are doidgy sellers out there and scam artists and all sorts of ethically and morally challenged persons - we see this over and over again and it is good that the buyer is aware of it and trying to keep this information hidden out of fear of penalties is, in my opinion also less than ethical. If the relevant parties are doing nothing wrong, then they have nothing to worry about.

kinda curious what other 'crimes" that you think are ok to cover up for fear of a penalty being administered? What other "crimes" do you not agree to disclosure in the pursuit of secrecy and deceit rather than transperancey and exposure?

again, unless PJ is telling porkies, this does happen and it is good that people are aware of it.

[*crikey*mate*]

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@the_billycan wrote:

I'm with you. It is a fact of life that buyers simply will not pay what it costs to ensure delivery for cheap items. No buyer is going to pay an additional $7.00 or more for a $5.00 item and if you include that cost in the original price, it only increases eBay's profits always assuming that a buyer thinks that the $5.00 item is worth $12.00 and you can sell it at all. The best you can do is make the SOD/registraltion option available but put a GREAT BIG disclaimer that you will not be held liable once the item is posted.

On the issue of photographing your envelope with the address AND the posting label that would seem like adequate proof of posting to me. Can you other people please explain to me why anyone would pay the postage for an article and then not send it, risking their reputation and all for a $5.00 item. That would be crazy!!! I don't know what you people sell but let me tell you it does not pay to inflate the cost of cheap items with fancy posting options because they won't be taken up or the item WILL NOT SELL. 

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the disclaimer will be ineffective - your disclaimer cannot trump the law.

so either evaluate whether to take the risk, pay the tracking or find something else to sell as it may not be a feasible item for online trading. Kinda like setting up a posh restaurant in Queens - if the custoers don't wanna pay, you go somewhere where they will or supply them with what they are prepared to pay for.

para 2 - hmmmm perhaps there was nothing in the envelope when they paid, perhaps the contents weren't as decribed so the seller didn't want to risk a neg or a chargebackand decided to blame aus post instead, or maybe, they just forgot to post it after paying, we often hear of people walking out of supermarkets with something tucked under their arm even though they went through checkout and paid for other stuff. Maybe they got distracted, or had a heart attack between payment and putting it in the letter box. dunno, but there are a few possibilities.

Rules are one size fits all, they are not made to discriminate between a $5 purchase or a $1000 one.

risking reputations? PayPal doesn't know if you are a scammer doing this a million times or a genuine person. i think the multi coloured rose seeds are about $3 a packet, and there are near on 200 listings for these on eBay atm with the scam netting the seller about $15,000 a month (might have been a week, can't remember) - he really isn't concerned about HIS reputation.

and if an item doesn't sell, regardless of it's cost, then if you want to stay in business, you find another product.

there are ways to protect yourself as a seller, and like most protection, this costs money. If you don't want the protection - don't pay but reconcile yourself with any possible consequences

[digital*ghost]

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@crikey*mate wrote:

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the disclaimer will be ineffective - your disclaimer cannot trump the law.

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Disclaimers can't trump the law, but that is a legal disclaimer to make and many businesses do make just such a disclaimer (except on ebay, where it is a breach of policy to state that you won't take resposibility for lost or damaged mail unless a registered / insured service is selected).

Consider the scenario where a seller uses C&S without SOD - no cover at all, but proof of postage is provided. The buyer can not enforce a refund or compensation from the seller or Australia Post. The only reason PayPal facilitate refunds (from the seller) for INR is when the seller can't prove they posted, ergo (I presume) the assumption is that they didn't.

In a court of law, the proofs required would be quite different, and would encompass a much broader range of evidence.

I understand most of the time discussions here are limited to the world of eBay and PayPal, and there are practicalities involved when dealing with both, but the world is much bigger than those two. 

[the_billycan]

That's a might thick hat you are talking through and you make huge assumptions:

the disclaimer will be ineffective - your disclaimer cannot trump the law

If that were the case, Australia Post wouldn't be able to get away with not providing guaranteed delivery for every item that they take legal responsibility for.

Kinda like setting up a posh restaurant in Queens.....pay the tracking or find something else to sell as it may not be a feasible item for online trading

Are you a Yank? I'm not setting up a posh restaurant in Queens or any other part of that contemptible country. I am not in and have no wish to be in a business where profit is everything. Neither do I want to/or will accept responsibillity for items I have duly entrusted to Australia Post. In Australia, only "proof of posting" is required to absolve a seller of liability and a photo of a stamped, addressed and sealed parcel, large letter or whatever should be enough. In fact, Paypal indicated it was (actually their suggestion) when I had an issue with a thieving buyer a few months ago. 

I just sell a few items I no longer want, to recoup some funds to prop up my pension so it is never going to be "find another product" and is hardly in my perview to do anything else. I think it insulting that YOU suggest I do, just as it is insulting that it should be intimated that I or anybody else should go elsewhere if I don't like it, which seems to be your crony PJ's stock in trade. Neither the OP nor I have broken any eBay rule or any law for that matter. Who made you the "eBay police"?

para 2 - hmmmm perhaps there was nothing in the envelope when they paid, perhaps the contents weren't as decribed so the seller didn't want to risk a neg or a chargebackand decided to blame aus post instead, or maybe, they just forgot to post it after paying, we often hear of people walking out of supermarkets with something tucked under their arm even though they went through checkout and paid for other stuff. Maybe they got distracted, or had a heart attack between payment and putting it in the letter box. dunno, but there are a few possibilities.

Gee, you are really are clutching at straws now. They went to the post office to buy postage for an empty envelope or they were planning a massive fraud that would support them for the rest of their lives, all on a $5.00 to $10.00 item. No wait, they had a heart attack and died and the OP is a disembodied spirit with an axe to grind. Unbelievable!!

risking reputations? PayPal doesn't know if you are a scammer doing this a million times or a genuine person

While I won't be defrauded by some cheaparsed buyer who won't take responsibility for their own inactions, I care that my many honest customers believe me to be the honest person I am. Other than acknowleging that I follow their rules, I don't give a tinker's curse what Paypal thinks of me.    

[21ladyluck]

You are so right. Once you pay Australia Post, you can NOT remove the item. So those photos are valid proof.

In fact we have to take our photos at the counter in front of them.

And NO, we do not hold up the line. We pay first and then move to the side to take those few photos. The ladies there are kind enough to allow it since it does NOT disrupt anything.

And a big thank you to whoever suggested I check the buyers "feedback given". This buyer has put in negs for 2 other sellers this month for not receiving an item.

We will never know how many other sellers may have refunded the money to avoid a neg.

And her last email to me today said she will remove that neg if I give her a refund.

Some of you think I'm stupid for not refunding the money. Maybe I am. For me it's not about the money. It's about not giving in to feedback blackmail.

I've been doing business online and off for over 20 years and believe if you give in to this sort of thing, you're only encouraging it to happen to others. Blocking this person only stops them from doing it to me again. It does not stop them from doing it to others.

And yes, I have report this to eBay and PayPal. I don't know how they will handle it, but my conscience is clear, old fashioned as that might sound.

Pam

[thecatspjs]

crikey regarding your responses to mine and to some others too - lol lol lol - I think someone mentioned some clutching at straws, sounds like that to me.

[imastawka]

This has gotten so OT it's not funny.    Eyes glazed.  Not going down the road of quoting - too many.

Just making a statement now.   Keelhaul me if you must.

My category is very much like having a B&M store. Multiple repeat buyers.  Buyers and sellers

are able to meet face to face around once a month - very clubby.   Buyers don't necessarily know

your id and, unless a surname is mentioned, then sellers don't know the buyers either.  Your

reputation is won or lost on word of mouth.  I believe that to be somewhat unique on ebay.

I don't think I've heard anyone bandy the words 'paypal protection'.  We tend to look after each

other.   I have buyers that don't pay for 6 weeks but I know they're good for it.  When I was

sick I totally forgot to send an auction item, found it 2 weeks later.  Buyer said she knew I'd get

around to it.( Low stars, but I deserved it)  As compensation I let her choose anything she wanted

from store and  gave her freebies.   All my customers get a freebie with every order. I feel this is the

best way to get return business.

If an order is large $$ and unique, then yes, it's registered and lodged over the counter. 

 Otherwise I just replace it if lost and offer compensation.  As I said, maybe twice in 6 months.

A refund has never been asked for.

As for FVF - its pennies on an ordinary listing.

So as for OP -  I repeat -  Not worth a neg, just refund

Phew!!

Ready for that keelhauling now 

[21ladyluck]

Update ... found 2 more "never received". That makes 5 never received negs the buyer has including mine in the last 30 days.

How many "never received" before you stop believing the buyer ?