any safe way to sell pickup paid by paypal?

[stick.it.good]

I sell some items where I allow pickup. And even if I say Cash on Pickup is preferred, obviously some buyers prefer paypal to use their balance or ebay coupons.

But I find it very frustrating that ebay allows pickup, but has no safety net if the buyer files a paypal claim.

I can ask for ID, but some people feel very uncomfortable handing this out, and especially letting me take a copy.

I can kindly say that without it, I cannot continue with the sale. But in real life, buyers can get frustrated and leave negative feedback. Plus, it's just not a nice purchasing experience for them, or me!

Has anyone found any way to keep themselves as a seller safe from potential scams without making the buyer feel like an untrustworthy scumbag? I want to have positive relations with buyers and not have to treat each of them like potential scammers.

[tazzieterror]

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@gumleaf_goodies wrote:

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@tazzieterror wrote:

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@gumleaf_goodies wrote:

I understand your concerns, as I also allow pickup of many items. I state in my listings that cash on pickup is preferred, but there are still those who don't read and pay by Paypal anyway.  Most times I email them and let them know I will be refunding their PP payment and will take cash if they still intend picking up. Otherwise they will have to pay for postage.

Pickup is a privilege not a right, and some sellers even request a fee for pickup!! (I don't). The only negative I ever received was from a buyer who got angry when I refunded her $10 PP payment for a pickup item. If that is their attitude I'd rather not sell to them.

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You might prefer to to be paid by cash for an item being picked up, but as PayPal is offered as a payment method on all your listings a buyer has every right to feel miffed if you refund a PayPal payment and then demand to receive cash instead.  You're going back on the terms displayed in your listing as well as a condition you agree to abide to by selling on eBay.

You may consider pickup to be a privilege, but again if you're offering it as an option in a listing, the buyer has every right to use that option to receive the item they've purchased.

I'd respectfully suggest it is your attitude and not that of your buyer that is in need of adjustment here.

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I am not allowed to state straight out that I will only accept cash if items are to be picked up. If I could I would. However, I can only do it in the most polite way I can phrase it - I would prefer cah if picking up. Stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

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Yes, accepting PayPal is a requirement, so once again in a situation where you refund a PP payment and require the buyer to instead turn up with cash, you're in violation of eBay's selling terms, and a buyer is justified in leaving less than positive feedback about an eBay seller who doesn't want to adhere to eBay rules.

[springyzone]

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@go-tazz wrote:

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I sell pickup items and my I have my webcam pointing straight at my gate and across the area that their item is picked up from,(I get them to message me the time that they will pickup before they get here and only have to click a button to start recording).

Only ever had one person ask if the item had being picked up as they hadn't received it yet and once I explained that they had and I had the camera proof if they needed it I never heard anything back,(I also write down their number plate viewed via the binoculars as they drive away),

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How suss is that!!! 

Why would any normal buyer ask if an item had been picked up yet? Unless they had dementia.

Surely they would know if they had or had not driven to pick it up.

And if they sent someone else or a courier, they would know that too and they would message the someone else to ask if it had been picked up, not the seller.

[go-tazz]

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@springyzone wrote:

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@go-tazz wrote:

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I sell pickup items and my I have my webcam pointing straight at my gate and across the area that their item is picked up from,(I get them to message me the time that they will pickup before they get here and only have to click a button to start recording).

Only ever had one person ask if the item had being picked up as they hadn't received it yet and once I explained that they had and I had the camera proof if they needed it I never heard anything back,(I also write down their number plate viewed via the binoculars as they drive away),

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How suss is that!!! 

Why would any normal buyer ask if an item had been picked up yet? Unless they had dementia.

Surely they would know if they had or had not driven to pick it up.

And if they sent someone else or a courier, they would know that too and they would message the someone else to ask if it had been picked up, not the seller.

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They did get someone else to pick it up and asked me to pack it securely as the pick up person wasn't good

with collectables,(that made sure I had all the info I needed if they tried something funny),

[stick.it.good]

The problem though is, even if you have their licence details, a video of them picking it up and their registration information. Would any of this stop PayPal from siding with the buyer?
Everytime I read of cases where buyer claims a charge back, I always read that eBay and PayPal don't want to "accuse the buyer of lying"

[brerrabbit585]

It sounds more like your buyer didn't trust the person they got to pick it up and were asking you to verify that it had been picked up.

[davewil1964]

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@stick.it.good wrote:
The problem though is, even if you have their licence details, a video of them picking it up and their registration information. Would any of this stop PayPal from siding with the buyer?
Everytime I read of cases where buyer claims a charge back, I always read that eBay and PayPal don't want to "accuse the buyer of lying"

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It might not stop Paypal siding with the buyer, but it would give the ombudsman more reason to convince Paypal to change its mind.

[go-tazz]

I would just notify PP that I've informed the buyer that unless payment was in my account within 24 hours I

would just report them to Acorn with the video evidence and let them be charged with theft if they deny the

pickup,

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@brerrabbit585 wrote:
It sounds more like your buyer didn't trust the person they got to pick it up and were asking you to verify that it had been picked up.

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That could've been a possibility,

[digital*ghost]

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@stick.it.good wrote:
The problem though is, even if you have their licence details, a video of them picking it up and their registration information. Would any of this stop PayPal from siding with the buyer?
Everytime I read of cases where buyer claims a charge back, I always read that eBay and PayPal don't want to "accuse the buyer of lying"

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The only protection PayPal offers buyers with pick-up is not as described, and they don't actually offer seller protection for that, whether the item is picked up or posted (if something is determined to be as described, then the buyer is not due a refund, if something is determined to be not as described, the buyer is due a refund and PayPal have no reason or cause to pay for it on the seller's behalf).

PayPal are at least less biased than eBay when it comes to INAD disputes, and will pay attention to evidence a seller provides, but like most companies in their position, the only way to err on the side of caution is to take the path of least resistance, which  - believe it or not -  is to try and put both parties back to their original position, the buyer with their money, and the seller with their item. 

When it comes to chargebacks, however, PayPal don't side with anyone - the bank or financial institution makes the decision of whether or not to allow or deny the chargeback, and unlike PayPal who have both parties as customers, they have a vested interest only in their customer's business - the seller is meaningless to them. 

[countessalmirena]

If one is a merchant accepting credit card payments, and a chargeback is initiated, the merchant can fight the charge with evidence personally. There's to-and-fro between the bank and the merchant, as well as the merchant being able to contact the buyer with, for example, "On xuch-and-such a date we sent you such-and-such an item to your address. Our records show that the purchase was made from the IP address xxx.xx.xx.x - so perhaps you mistakenly didn't recognise the charge in your statement...?"

There are other things which the merchant can do, including other means of offering evidence of the goods being sent to the buyer's address.

That sort of transparency and flexibility aids the merchant in cases where the chargeback is unjust.

(Just to clarify, the issuing banks will look at a variety of evidence from the seller. There are cases where the IP address of the purchaser has been vital in the bank's decision to close the chargeback request in the seller's favour.)

PayPal won't do that. PayPal ask for evidence that meets the minimum requirements to get the chargeback rejected; PayPal is the one dealing with the bank, not the merchant. PayPal never ever "fight" a charge; they will only offer the evidence required under their Seller Protection (which is, ipso facto, the sort of information required by the bank in the easiest scenario).

digital*ghost, you are right; PayPal are less biased than eBay. The "path of least resistance" is as apt a description as it could possibly be. Crucially, they won't fight for the merchant in chargeback cases, not as a merchant would when dealing directly with credit card payments where there's a chargeback.

I still think that prevention is better than cure, and here's where dealing directly with customers' credit card payments really stands out as risk mitigation. Sellers can't mitigate those risks if they accept payments through PayPal, and PayPal's flaws are certainly highlighted when they pass on the risk that they won't or can't mitigate to their merchants....

[digital*ghost]

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@countessalmirena wrote:

PayPal ask for evidence that meets the minimum requirements to get the chargeback rejected

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Just a small clarification - the evidence they ask for is not in order to get the chargeback rejected, it is purely in order to check whether the seller qualifies for the protection they offer, which in turn means no matter what happens with the chargeback, the seller won't lose any funds (i.e. PayPal pay the bank back, not the seller).

PayPal would already have information or record about the IP address, how far away it is from the delivery address, whether that IP address has been recorded X times when someone has logged into the same PayPal account, and made X undisputed purchases with the credit card on file, and any bank can already see whether the delivery name and address is the cardholder's, or a delivery or billing address on record with the bank and a lot of other data that could result in the bank denying the claim (which is rare).