Buyer claiming S.N.A.D - complex case

[seaworthee1]

To cut a long story short:

1) Sent a camera with accessories to a buyer.

2) Buyer claims that accessories were sent in box, but not the camera body. Claims that the box was not tampered with. 

3) Buyer opens a dispute in Paypal almost immediately after receiving said item, escalates it to a claim after I said I packed everything in the box. Did not give me a chance to seriously investigate the matter or come up with some sort of amicable solution.

4) I have provided documentary evidence of tracking, postage etc, photos - but obviously this proof is useless in a SNAD case.

5) I've also rang Australia Post and they confirmed it was delivered, and that it wasn't opened for routine inspection or anything like that. There is now an investigation underway as to the whereabouts of this item. 

I suspect Australia Post will rule against my claim because as far as they are concerned, the item was delivered (albeit apparently missing the auction item). I'm also fairly likely to lose in the dispute with PayPal, as buyers are wholly protected in cases of items significantly not as described provided they return the item.

Is there any recourse of action for myself? The buyer is in the process of filing a police report and signing a stat dec, all because I sent an item I knew to be 100% accurate and true to the listing. I have been now advised to file a police report and stat dec myself, but this **bleep**-for-tat business doesn't seem like it will produce a result in the end. It will be a case of his stat dec versus my stat dec, and so on. 

It might also be unwise of me to file a police report if I am not sure the buyer has kept the item and is claiming that he did not receive it in full. Australia Post are investigating things on their end but it would appear to take a lot more time than it takes to resolve an average PayPal dispute.

Any advice here would be greatly appreciated. Thankyou.

[thecatspjs]

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@seaworthee1 wrote:

Yes, I didn't mean to say that it was totally useless. But in terms of being covered by the PayPal Selling Policy, I would easily be able to refute an item not received case with postage information and get a refund, which I obviously can't do in a SNAD case.

As mentioned, the claim with Australia Post has been lodged. It was lodged on the Monday just gone. I guess it's easy to say I should have filed a police report the minute the buyer said he hadn't received the camera, but you do tend to believe the stories these people concoct, at least initially. It's important to remember that I had (and still don't) have concrete evidence on the whereabouts of the camera.

Now that I've had a few days to equip myself with some knowledge on the matter, it's obvious I've been the victim of fraud or theft. I've also had the assistance of some very helpful people on this forum who have made suggestions that I never would have thought of myself.

FWIW, I have made a report to NSW Police and the ACCC Scamwatch website. I will be ringing PayPal tomorrow to follow up on my escalation complaint. I've also kept the buyer updated on my actions, but he is not budging one little bit, as you might expect.

Do you think it's wise to update Ebay on the buying patterns of this user?

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Yes, I would report the buyer to eBay.

I just had a closer look at the AP extra cover policy - and it is the addressee that must make the claim if the goods have been delivered.

I am not surprised that AP have not advised you of this - they are fairly hopeless on any detail.

I would ring them tomorrow and clarify this oversight they have made, you may get a better result if you request to speak to someone on their escalation team.  They have some tough cookies on that team, but they will take you seriously, if you are taking appropriate action. 

SCHEDULE 1 EXTRA COVER SERVICE TERMS AND CONDITIONS

13 Who can claim

13.1.1 if the article in relation to which the Service applies has been delivered, only the Addressee may claim under the Service

[seaworthee1]

Yup, I did read that in their policy a few days ago. The last thing I want is for the buyer to make double his money and get a free camera.

Having said that, the contents of the camera box will be back in my possession tomorrow so it appears unlikely that he would be able to make a claim. Presumably he would have had to surrender the contents of the package to Australia Post.

To be honest I don't hold much hope for the Australia Post investigation. I think my best chance in getting compensation lies elsewhere.

[thecatspjs]

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@seaworthee1 wrote:

Yup, I did read that in their policy a few days ago. The last thing I want is for the buyer to make double his money and get a free camera.

Having said that, the contents of the camera box will be back in my possession tomorrow so it appears unlikely that he would be able to make a claim. Presumably he would have had to surrender the contents of the package to Australia Post.

To be honest I don't hold much hope for the Australia Post investigation. I think my best chance in getting compensation lies elsewhere.

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I think your odds of getting compensation are low.  But thats just my opinion, who knows, if the buyer tries this on regularly their history may mean something in an investigation.

By not advising paypal that a police investigation and an AP investigation and insurance claim was underway, providing them with details of each so they could verify and provide information to the police and to AP,  and requesting they do nothing that will interfere with these other investigations, will make it a tad difficult for investigation or claim processing as the buyer no longer has any of the evidence in their possession. 

[seaworthee1]

I advised PayPal at the time that an Australia Post investigation was underway, and provided them with the case number. In the context of the PP investigation it doesn't matter because the policy GUARANTEES that the buyer will be compensated. At least initially if the seller is willing to roll over and die afterward. The investigation/compensation claim with AP are one and the same thing..

Look, we all have lives that go on in the background. Work, study, whatever. I was not able to devote 100% of my time to the PayPal dispute and subsequent claim. In fact there was only 9 minutes between the dispute being filed and the escalation to a claim. PayPal gives you a maximum of 20 days to actually have a mediated, back-and-forth conversation between buyer and seller to resolve the situation. I didn't get that and subsequently had one single right of reply to put my case across.

Before I had even received the money from the sale of the camera in my bank account Paypal had ruled against me!

In any case, it's very hard to chronologically synchronise concurrent investigations. I have reported to 6 different organisations now and my lack of organisation in the early stages does not make the buyer any less fraudulent.

[thecatspjs]

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@seaworthee1 wrote:

I advised PayPal at the time that an Australia Post investigation was underway, and provided them with the case number. In the context of the PP investigation it doesn't matter because the policy GUARANTEES that the buyer will be compensated. At least initially if the seller is willing to roll over and die afterward. The investigation/compensation claim with AP are one and the same thing..

Look, we all have lives that go on in the background. Work, study, whatever. I was not able to devote 100% of my time to the PayPal dispute and subsequent claim. In fact there was only 9 minutes between the dispute being filed and the escalation to a claim. PayPal gives you a maximum of 20 days to actually have a mediated, back-and-forth conversation between buyer and seller to resolve the situation. I didn't get that and subsequently had one single right of reply to put my case across.

Before I had even received the money from the sale of the camera in my bank account Paypal had ruled against me!

In any case, it's very hard to chronologically synchronise concurrent investigations. I have reported to 6 different organisations now and my lack of organisation in the early stages does not make the buyer any less fraudulent.

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You are confusing the eBay guarantee with Paypal - Paypal do not provide such a guarantee 

S13.1 The PayPal Buyer Protection Policy will not protect you:

If you initiate a dispute through the Resolution Centre and also file a Chargeback directly with your Credit Card provider or a claim with eBay or any other company with respect to the same transaction. If you receive payments from both us and another organisation with respect to the same transaction, we will seek to recover any payment we have made to you under this policy;

Paypal also give sellers time to lodge your defence to a claim.   Paypal do not immediately rule against you you have several days to respond to a claim, and reminders are sent.

[seaworthee1]

Ok, technically yes it is not guaranteed, but providing you meet the requirements you have a pretty good chance. 

It took less than 48 hours from the time of dispute lodgement  for PayPal to rule against me. No point worrying about that now though, I'll keep everyone updated as more details come to hand.

[thecatspjs]

Sellers have 10 calander days to respond to a claim filed against them.

If sellers respond to a claim quickly (without signficant evidence to defend a claim) it can be much more quickly determined, as it has been in your case.

[seaworthee1]

That was my mistake unfortunately. 

I was probably too eager to get some sort of defense up and not gather my thoughts. It is the first time I've been subject to something like this on Ebay so I was disadvantaged compared to the buyer who clearly knows the process like the back of his hand.

[cq_tech]

With a grand total of 22 prior INRs under his belt, I'm not the least bit surprised he knows the ropes. I don't doubt that Paypal are well aware of his previous history but it wouldn't hurt to remind them when you're next speaking with them.

[found-in-australia]

Do you have the serial number of the camera recorded from when you originally bought it (or sold it) ?

It probably wouldn't help in the short term, but if it is put up for sale in the future, it may be possible for the police to track it's history and identify either whoever stole it en-route or comitted a subsequent fraud.

A terrible position for you to be in with a major sale. Good luck in the long term.

Kind Regards,  Kevin