Listings removed after the rights owner reported it as counterfeit

[the_alchemist_australia]

Hi all,

Long time stalker who comes here for information usually as I know there is a lot of reliable advice.

I have had a lot of listings removed due to being counterfeit and sort of at a loss as to how to approach the situation.

I am a jeweller and electroplater so I gold plate items in a variety of metals.

Due to demand I started gold plating Pandora jewellery. Customers asked for the items so I would purchase them from a Pandora retail outlet and gold plate them putting the cost of the plating on top and selling them on eBay.

I know about how bad it is to sell counterfeit items and so I would provide a copy of the original purchase receipt from Pandora to the buyer as well as put it in the listing as well.

So my conundrum being that my listings being called counterfeit seems to be that I gold plate an authentic Pandora item and that then makes it counterfeit?

My listings were clearly explained and never misrepresented as being solid gold etc.. And always a very in depth explanation as to the process. I have many happy buyers and repeat buyers as well. Nothing but praise really.

I have of course contacted the email address given to me by eBay being a non for profit organisation called "React" stating to act on Pandora's behalf but I have not received any replies. I have also contacted Pandora directly at their head office today to try and get more information as to if what I am doing is wrong.

Basically if they are saying I am selling counterfeit items and I have all the receipts to prove I purchased them from a licensed Pandora outlet then are one of the Pandora shops I am buying from selling me fakes? I would highly suspect that is not the case but maybe worth pursuing?

I know there is no way to offer any 'legal advice' on here and I should probably seek that this coming week myself to see where I stand on this matter but what is your take on this.

If I buy an authentic jewellery item and gold plate it then resell it, does that make it counterfeit?

Interested in your views really and thanks for your time as always.

Cheers

[kopenhagen5]

It may be they simply don't have a category for removing what you are doing.

So counterfieted aside, Pandora may not be happy with **bleep**ised versions of their product no matter how good they might be.

It's no longer a QC'd Pandora product.

I know if I was manufacturing a product I wouldn't want anyone changing them and selling them.

No way to QC the product, especially as to any guarantee Pandora gives.

e.g The products looks and performance after 20-50 years.

(The bleep is a person born out of wedlock)

[chameleon54]

http://www.pandora.net/en-au/company/brand-protection/authorised-retailers

The link above is to the official pandora website and advises that it does not authorise its items to be sold on ebay by retailers. Your items are genuine, but as you are not a licenced and authorised Pandora seller or agent and you have not paid Pandora the required fees to sell their items I would expect that you would be breaching licencing and brand patent laws. 

Its a pity as you sound like you have a great idea and are being upfront and honest with your customers. The only way you may get around the rules is to sell the Pandora as used rather than New / gold plated. Even then I suspect you will still be reported and your listings removed by ebay due to the number of items you would have listed and the business nature of your store etc..

[the_alchemist_australia]

Ah yes that does help as I am trying to see it from different perspectives.

And of no consequence I know but at least I did offer a minimum two year warranty on the gold plating whereas Pandora does not offer anything beyond 14 days and no warranty on any of their plated items.

So it may just be that they don't want their items circulating in a format that is not from their original product offering. Would have thought that would be misrepresentation of trademark or similar but it was the counterfeit reason that threw me.

I can understand that so maybe I should just go back to how I began in offering a gold plating service on any item a customer wishes to ship to me. Just gold plate their own items regardless of what they are and where they came from. I only moved away from that to speed up the process due to the demand on shipping out items quickly on eBay. But yes, it does make sense.

[chameleon54]

I just had a look at your sold listings and can see several legal problems.

The first is that you list the items as " brand new ". But the person who buys them from you will be the second owner so they are technically second hand. 

 Second  problem...you are not a licenced Pandora agent and are not legally allowed to sell " new " Pandora so are breaching their licencing agreements by calling your items new.

Third problem, as the link in above post shows, Pandora specifically note in detail that they DO NOT authorise their retailers to sell Pandora items on ebay ( specifically named ), so by listing your items as " New Pandora " on ebay you are asking for trouble.

Finally, as Kopes has mentioned, you have made major changes to the item, so I would expect you would be breaching copyright laws by calling the items " new Pandora."

You have been completely honest and upfront with your ebay customers, so are not trying to delibrately decieve anyone. As mentioned I think you have a great idea.......Its just that it is illegal the way you currently have it structured and you would have no chance of appealing the listing removals.....Sorry....

edit . Still typing while you posted your comments crypto.....

[the_alchemist_australia]

Wow, awesome info and thank you for your time in showing me chameleon. Greatly appreciated.

I had no intentions of appealing the removal of the listings, I know better than that after being a long time eBay seller and really just wanted other opinions.I honestly never considered the second person concept of jewellery and how it actually isn't new then.

So many loop holes and buyers messaging me now asking what is going on. And because they are past buyers they are sending through their email address and phone numbers. OMG I don't want to be slapped with the communication thing again. That was so bad!

[digital*ghost]

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@chameleon54 wrote:

http://www.pandora.net/en-au/company/brand-protection/authorised-retailers

The link above is to the official pandora website and advises that it does not authorise its items to be sold on ebay by retailers. Your items are genuine, but as you are not a licenced and authorised Pandora seller or agent and you have not paid Pandora the required fees to sell their items I would expect that you would be breaching licencing and brand patent laws. 

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I think this is debateable, but obviously can't say for sure as I'm not to clued in to the full ins and outs of Pandora's retailing agreements.

But, from what I understand of what they're saying on the site, it's not that people can't sell Pandora here, but that their authorised sellers are not allowed to sell on eBay. I'm relativey certain they have no legal right to stop people from selling things that they (the people) own, so I think what they are saying is simply that when you buy from eBay, you're not buying from an authorised retailer, and therefore the authenticity of the product can not be guaranteed. 

It's like Avon - I believe there is a condition that states Avon reps aren't allowed to sell products on eBay, but people come by Avon products in all sorts of ways, and Avon doesn't have a legal right to stop people from selling their own property, nor advising people what brand it is.

The main issue is that what the OP is offering is an aftermaket modification, one that is not carried out by the brand themselves, therefore there are elements of the product that do not carry the Pandora branding, and the problem could be that they're being titled in a way that suggests the gold plating is original (even if the description makes things clear, doing so in titles is just as important).

With brands like Swarovski, dealing with this kind of thing is easier because they understand people use them in their own products so have outlined what you can and can't say about them - if you've used a Swarovski crystal in a product, say a pendant, you can't say it is a "Swarovski Pendant", you have to say something like "Crystal Pendant made with Swarovski Elements" - Pandora probably didn't really expect their products to be modified or altered, but if we can apply that same logic to this scenario, I would actually expect something like "European Bead made with Pandora Elements" (or similar) to be quite legal, if not acceptable to Pandora themselves...

Unfortunately, whether or not they'd find that ok is what makes listing such products on eBay particularly volatile, even if there's nothing illegal about it, because you have no defence against them taking issue with your listings. Even if you're 100% in the right, you'd basically have to take them to court about it and there'd be no guarantees they won't continue to be successful in reporting listings, which would likely ultimately result in account restrictions / closure. 

[k1ooo-slr-sales]

I know that only an idiot would expect to get a Pure 24K gold toilet roll holder for $49 and expect it to be solid gold, but your titles for gold plated items do not state “plated”.  This may cause you some issues as we know that being an idiot does not exclude people from joining eBay.

[chameleon54]

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@digital*ghost wrote:

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@chameleon54 wrote:

http://www.pandora.net/en-au/company/brand-protection/authorised-retailers

The link above is to the official pandora website and advises that it does not authorise its items to be sold on ebay by retailers. Your items are genuine, but as you are not a licenced and authorised Pandora seller or agent and you have not paid Pandora the required fees to sell their items I would expect that you would be breaching licencing and brand patent laws. 

---

I think this is debateable, but obviously can't say for sure as I'm not to clued in to the full ins and outs of Pandora's retailing agreements.

But, from what I understand of what they're saying on the site, it's not that people can't sell Pandora here, but that their authorised sellers are not allowed to sell on eBay. I'm relativey certain they have no legal right to stop people from selling things that they (the people) own, so I think what they are saying is simply that when you buy from eBay, you're not buying from an authorised retailer, and therefore the authenticity of the product can not be guaranteed. 

It's like Avon - I believe there is a condition that states Avon reps aren't allowed to sell products on eBay, but people come by Avon products in all sorts of ways, and Avon doesn't have a legal right to stop people from selling their own property, nor advising people what brand it is.

The main issue is that what the OP is offering is an aftermaket modification, one that is not carried out by the brand themselves, therefore there are elements of the product that do not carry the Pandora branding, and the problem could be that they're being titled in a way that suggests the gold plating is original (even if the description makes things clear, doing so in titles is just as important).

With brands like Swarovski, dealing with this kind of thing is easier because they understand people use them in their own products so have outlined what you can and can't say about them - if you've used a Swarovski crystal in a product, say a pendant, you can't say it is a "Swarovski Pendant", you have to say something like "Crystal Pendant made with Swarovski Elements" - Pandora probably didn't really expect their products to be modified or altered, but if we can apply that same logic to this scenario, I would actually expect something like "European Bead made with Pandora Elements" (or similar) to be quite legal, if not acceptable to Pandora themselves...

Unfortunately, whether or not they'd find that ok is what makes listing such products on eBay particularly volatile, even if there's nothing illegal about it, because you have no defence against them taking issue with your listings. Even if you're 100% in the right, you'd basically have to take them to court about it and there'd be no guarantees they won't continue to be successful in reporting listings, which would likely ultimately result in account restrictions / closure. 

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The crux of the matter is that the OP has listed his items as brand new. Pandora licence all of their retail sellers and no doubt charge them very hefty franchise fees to be authorised Pandora sellers. With this in mind, Pandora are well within their rights and are actually being commercially responsible by protecting the retailers who have paid the licence fees to sell " NEW " Pandora.

 Basically the OP is not a licenced retailer and has not paid Pandora franchise fees, so is breaching Pandoras licencing agreements with its retailers by listing the items as " brand New "

[digital*ghost]

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@chameleon54 wrote:

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The crux of the matter is that the OP has listed his items as brand new. Pandora licence all of their retail sellers and no doubt charge them very hefty franchise fees to be authorised Pandora sellers. With this in mind, Pandora are well within their rights and are actually being commercially responsible by protecting the retailers who have paid the licence fees to sell " NEW " Pandora.

 Basically the OP is not a licenced retailer and has not paid Pandora franchise fees, so is breaching Pandoras licencing agreements with its retailers by listing the items as " brand New "

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My point was that unless you know something I don't, this is all speculation on your part.

However, the wording on the site doesn't require interpretation or speculation at all; it's very clear.

"PANDORA does not authorise any of our retailers to sell PANDORA jewellery on any Internet auction sites, and we can only guarantee the authenticity of products purchased through our authorised PANDORA retailers."

i.e. "We don't let our sellers do it", not "we won't let any sellers do it".