Listings removed after the rights owner reported it as counterfeit

[the_alchemist_australia]

Hi all,

Long time stalker who comes here for information usually as I know there is a lot of reliable advice.

I have had a lot of listings removed due to being counterfeit and sort of at a loss as to how to approach the situation.

I am a jeweller and electroplater so I gold plate items in a variety of metals.

Due to demand I started gold plating Pandora jewellery. Customers asked for the items so I would purchase them from a Pandora retail outlet and gold plate them putting the cost of the plating on top and selling them on eBay.

I know about how bad it is to sell counterfeit items and so I would provide a copy of the original purchase receipt from Pandora to the buyer as well as put it in the listing as well.

So my conundrum being that my listings being called counterfeit seems to be that I gold plate an authentic Pandora item and that then makes it counterfeit?

My listings were clearly explained and never misrepresented as being solid gold etc.. And always a very in depth explanation as to the process. I have many happy buyers and repeat buyers as well. Nothing but praise really.

I have of course contacted the email address given to me by eBay being a non for profit organisation called "React" stating to act on Pandora's behalf but I have not received any replies. I have also contacted Pandora directly at their head office today to try and get more information as to if what I am doing is wrong.

Basically if they are saying I am selling counterfeit items and I have all the receipts to prove I purchased them from a licensed Pandora outlet then are one of the Pandora shops I am buying from selling me fakes? I would highly suspect that is not the case but maybe worth pursuing?

I know there is no way to offer any 'legal advice' on here and I should probably seek that this coming week myself to see where I stand on this matter but what is your take on this.

If I buy an authentic jewellery item and gold plate it then resell it, does that make it counterfeit?

Interested in your views really and thanks for your time as always.

Cheers

[digital*ghost]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to continue to respecfully disagree on the Brand New / authorised sellers point (in general, not in relation to the OP).

As mentioned, I'm in agreeance with you on all other points, but I can't see why they'd become second hand as soon as they are out of an authorised retailer's hands, unless the point purely and specifically relates to ownership (and not use) of the product, which is not the common understanding of the term. 

I do get why it's good advice to tell someone to list a new / never used Pandora item as pre-owned on places like ebay, and more specifically in relation to this case, though I actually think that wouldn't go quite far enough when skirting around TM / Copyright laws, as the OP effectively created a new product using someone else's product, so personally I think that while they can state it's brand new if that happens to be the case, and advise in the description that Pandora beads or charms were used to create the product, realistically they shouldn't be branded as Pandora products. 

BTW that Pandora guide on ebay was published in 2013, the seller they link to has sold in recent history but it looks like they moved over to their own branded items, there's no way to tell for sure if the member who wrote the guide was an authorised rep from Pandaora since they are no longer a member, and Pandora is not listed as an active member of the VeRO program (nor is "React", for that matter, but they seem legit) - some of the info is definitely outdated, though, because it contradicts what is currently on the actual Pandora site.

[the_alchemist_australia]

Yes the "React" company seems legit and I have contacted them via their website as well.

They have a legal representative company based in Melbourne so I will make that my next contact during the week as I really just want someone to answer me about all this. Just being ignored is the annoying part. If they want to remove the listings at least have the decency to reply to my questions to clarify that hey "don't do what you are doing" instead of just counterfeit items and no reply.

There is a lot of counterfeit sellers on eBay of the Pandora brand, they stand out and I have been doing this a long time so they are very easy to identify. The Charm Me seller was an authorised Pandora reseller but Pandora decided to actually get a website to sell online so they gave notice to Charm Me to finish up. So now the one or two really big sellers that defy the laws of selling Pandora online and are actually globally selling on various eBay country sites, seem to be ok as they are selling brand new "genuine items".

I did research many moons ago and located the source they are buying from and it is just a guy selling at a market stall in Thailand but he has a connection at Pandora factory where it is made and seems to have "factory back door access". So the items are actually authentic if inspected but just not going through the correct sales channels.

Even more annoying though is that I do collect the limited edition holiday ornaments from Pandora and sell them also.

So they even removed those under the counterfeit reason when there is no way they would even be produced as a counterfeit item. They are usually gift with purchase but are collectors items. No gold plating involved and no brand new with tags etc.. They have just taken down every listing I had that mentioned the word Pandora.

I know there is no use complaining or arguing about it, I would just like to know more about why, as the React company acting on Pandora's behalf only deal with counterfeiting and do "stealth operations" and "trial purchases" to test if the item is in fact counterfeit.

So if that is the case from the React company view then let me know what items are counterfeit so I can show them which Pandora retail store I purchased them from.

I have every receipt and pay my gst and claim all the purchases on my tax of course. My profit margin is slim but I love what I do so it sort of was born out of demand.

Pandora is going to release their own range of 14K gold plated items this year. They know a cheaper gold version is in demand so maybe this is also a reason to take my listings down as they would instantly look like the real thing when their new range is released.

Don’t know, conspiracy theory maybe but it is definitely a grey area that I did not intend to step into when it comes to eBay.

[clarry100]

"Brand New"

The word "Brand" originally comes from England around 1,000 years ago and means to make an indelible and unique mark of ownership on something. It was commonly used by blacksmiths of the time to make a mark on their items by burning a unique mark into them. (vis-a-vis cattle branding of today)

So these days when a claim of "Brand New" is made it implies that this item is new (ie never used) and the design is owned by the original maker of it.

In the case of the OP whose items are modified Pandora items this is clearly not the case as Pandora have not made these items with gold plating. Hence, as their name is used in the listings, their claim of counterfeit is valid as these finished items are not made by them at all.

The OP could claim that the finished product is his own "Brand" but not imply in any way that Pandora has made them.
This would mean having to remove all reference to the Pandora brand name from the listings.
In turn, this would also mean that you could not even state that genuine and original Pandora items have been used as elements of the finished product. However, IMHO that then still leaves you open to claims of counterfeit because your own brand of items look exactly like original Pandora items. Albeit your finished items are gold plated.

Somewhat like the quintessential counterfeit $100 bill looks just like the original but it still isn't original so it's considered counterfeit.

I'm just trying to put forward my own spin on why Pandora would have considered your finished items as counterfeit.
Hence, your listings have been taken down by eBay after their complaint thru the VERO program.

I cannot offer a practical solution as to how you could continue to legally sell your items on eBay tho.

[springyzone]

First off, have to say it was a great business idea, as such, to gold plate some of the items. There's a massive difference in price between their silver & gold products and I bet a lot of customers would like a cheaper gold option.

The fact that Pandora might, by the sounds of it, release their own gold plated lines shows there's a market for it & you're right, they definitely wouldn't want copies. You could certainly gold plate some for family for private use, but selling them as a business is a different kettle of fish.

The problem here is that the items are new & were being sold in a business setting, using the Pandora name, which comes with a lot of prestige, if I can put it that way.

Also, if Pandora do start a range of gold plated items of their own, even though their items may not be the identical charms you have gold plated, it raises a problem. Those who buy from you know these are gold plated as you are upfront.

But if those people then onsell the products as second hand, it is possible they might try to pass them off as genuine 14k gold originals. The genuine pandora gold charms are hundreds of dollars, whereas a similar silver charm might be $60-$80. I didn't see your ads, but maybe it would be possible for someone to sell off one of your charms (maybe on ebay) as a genuine second hand item for more than they bought it from you for. The buyer would be up in arms if they later found it was gold plated & yes, they would have cause to complain it was 'counterfeit'.

[k1ooo-slr-sales]

Spoiler

springy, take a look through completed listings and you will see a few examples

[collect247]

Personally I don't know what the fuss is all about because Pandora are just a cheap version of jewelry and not sure why anyone thinks they are prestige at all lol.

How can they carry on because once someone purchases a pandora item then that item now belongs to the buyer and no longer belongs to pandora and the buyer should be able to do what ever they want with it.

If someone tells me what to do with an item I have purchased and I don't give a **bleep** who they are I'll tell them to go get stuffed.

[chameleon54]

Its not a question of whether the products are prestige or cheap plastic trinkets. The question is about the rights of the copyright owner to protect their brand & products. Personally I don't get all gooey in the knees over some product that is flogged to death in glossy magazines etc. but Pandora have spent an absolute fortune on establishing a brand and carving out a share of the premium plebs market.

They have a right to closely protect that brand and market share from counterfeiters. ( brand theft ) and also to look after authorised dealers who have paid out their life savings for a franchise.

Having said that I dont believe the OP has delibrately tried to do anything unethical and has been very honest and upfront with his customers. They simply had a great idea which happens to fall foul of complex legislation.

[springyzone]

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@kookakook wrote:

Personally I don't know what the fuss is all about because Pandora are just a cheap version of jewelry and not sure why anyone thinks they are prestige at all lol.

How can they carry on because once someone purchases a pandora item then that item now belongs to the buyer and no longer belongs to pandora and the buyer should be able to do what ever they want with it.

If someone tells me what to do with an item I have purchased and I don't give a **bleep** who they are I'll tell them to go get stuffed.

---

That may be true in a private setting. You can modify things how you want them.

But if you try to set up a business selling those things as new & using a company name, i think that's a whole new ball game.

The company pays for designers & production & at the moment, Pandora only has stirling silver or 14k gold charms (plus glass but that's not under discussion).

So anyone buying a second hand gold pandora charm might easily believe they were buying a 14k gold piece.

I'm not saying the OP's customers would as he was upfront, but down the track.

If I were Pandora i also would be concerned.

As for whether it is exclusive jewellery. I don't own any but I have seen their stores & seen their charms. You're looking at about $150 for  a plain bracelet and about $60-$80 for a lot of the silver charms & a bracelet might have a dozen on it. Some customers love it & make a point of buying a charm at different travel destinations.

So I think it does aim for 'prestige' status in the everyday market. It's not cheap, cheap.

The gold charms are hundreds of dollars each & they're not big

So whether you or I are collectors or like the brand doesn't matter really-lots of other people do & Pandora needs to protect its market I suppose.

[maranock]

You also have to keep in mind that legally a trademark holder has to protect their trademark whenever they see any type of breach, otherwise they can lose it, which is why you often see larger companies that have the most to lose seem to go over the top with threats of legal action - Disney is a good example. They have no choice.

[the_alchemist_australia]

Yes it would seem that I have identified a niche market that has demand as it is a more affordable option than their solid gold pieces.

I used to do the rose gold plating which is really where it began as Pandora rose gold was not available in Australia. As soon as they released it here I stopped the rose gold. It was a headache and the copper content reacts with certains peoples skin who are acidic and then tarnishes. And trying to explain to a buyer that it is their acidic skin that is tarnishing the metal and not my actual plating does not go down well no matter what.

The 14K solid gold charms are hallmark stamped G585 and the sterling silver ones are S925. The gold plating does not hide the hallmarks as we are talking microns of gold but if someone is not aware of the Pandora markings or their range of solid 14K pieces then I can see how it could be mistaken for a solid gold item.

I have had someon on a facebook page try to sell a gold plated clasp bangle as genuine and I did step in and advise it was plated. She said it was a gift so didn't know any different. Plus a buyer wanted an exchange for a different size bangle once and instead of sending it back to me, she sent it to the address on the original receipt I sent her so back to the Pandora store. That was interesting and Pandora told her is was an authentic silver bangle that has been gold plated on the clasp and she told them she knew and that Pandora charges ridiculous prices for theirs so she is happy with the gold lated version. Oh fun.

So I guess regardless of what I think I am doing, it does come down to the company being able to remove any listing really without giving an indepth explanation. Even christmas ornaments and a jewellery box.

I don't hold much stock on hand as I would buy and plate upon demand so best move on I would think.

A lot of people are asking for Emma and Roe to be plated... might not go there either.

Will try a gold plating service listing again as that is relevant to all jewellery.

But I do understand now how Pandora would have a view of protecting their original items as they were released to the public.

The Pandora stores here certainly weren't complaining about selling me the jewellery though of course.