Listings removed after the rights owner reported it as counterfeit

[the_alchemist_australia]

Hi all,

Long time stalker who comes here for information usually as I know there is a lot of reliable advice.

I have had a lot of listings removed due to being counterfeit and sort of at a loss as to how to approach the situation.

I am a jeweller and electroplater so I gold plate items in a variety of metals.

Due to demand I started gold plating Pandora jewellery. Customers asked for the items so I would purchase them from a Pandora retail outlet and gold plate them putting the cost of the plating on top and selling them on eBay.

I know about how bad it is to sell counterfeit items and so I would provide a copy of the original purchase receipt from Pandora to the buyer as well as put it in the listing as well.

So my conundrum being that my listings being called counterfeit seems to be that I gold plate an authentic Pandora item and that then makes it counterfeit?

My listings were clearly explained and never misrepresented as being solid gold etc.. And always a very in depth explanation as to the process. I have many happy buyers and repeat buyers as well. Nothing but praise really.

I have of course contacted the email address given to me by eBay being a non for profit organisation called "React" stating to act on Pandora's behalf but I have not received any replies. I have also contacted Pandora directly at their head office today to try and get more information as to if what I am doing is wrong.

Basically if they are saying I am selling counterfeit items and I have all the receipts to prove I purchased them from a licensed Pandora outlet then are one of the Pandora shops I am buying from selling me fakes? I would highly suspect that is not the case but maybe worth pursuing?

I know there is no way to offer any 'legal advice' on here and I should probably seek that this coming week myself to see where I stand on this matter but what is your take on this.

If I buy an authentic jewellery item and gold plate it then resell it, does that make it counterfeit?

Interested in your views really and thanks for your time as always.

Cheers

[fr2243]

I agree with your argument that "the main problem is they where listed as "brand new" after these modifications and when they where second hand."

However I believe your previous argument  that "Basically the OP is not a licenced retailer and has not paid Pandora franchise fees, so is breaching Pandoras licencing agreements with its retailers by listing the items as 'brand New'." is not entired accurate. I encountered a similar situation a few month ago and I had to contact ebay for thorough clearification eventually.

What ebay cs team told me is, the item condition in the listing is only related to the items's physical condtion. For example, if I bought a laptop from jb hifi and put it on ebay, I can still list it as brand new as long as the external package remains unsealed and intact. I dont have to offer the same warranty period like jb hi fi does if I specificly write "no warranty" in the description. Therefore in this case, I believe that the Pandora franchise fees is not related to the item condition on the OP's ebay listings.

[brerrabbit585]

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@fr2243 wrote:

I agree with your argument that "the main problem is they where listed as "brand new" after these modifications and when they where second hand."

However I believe your previous argument  that "Basically the OP is not a licenced retailer and has not paid Pandora franchise fees, so is breaching Pandoras licencing agreements with its retailers by listing the items as 'brand New'." is not entired accurate. I encountered a similar situation a few month ago and I had to contact ebay for thorough clearification eventually.

What ebay cs team told me is, the item condition in the listing is only related to the items's physical condtion. For example, if I bought a laptop from jb hifi and put it on ebay, I can still list it as brand new as long as the external package remains unsealed and intact. I dont have to offer the same warranty period like jb hi fi does if I specificly write "no warranty" in the description. Therefore in this case, I believe that the Pandora franchise fees is not related to the item condition on the OP's ebay listings.

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That would only relate to what you select in the condition field and is nothing to do with what's in the description or title.  Apart from that, CS reps wouldn't have a clue when it comes to the legal ramifications.

[digital*ghost]

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@clarry100 wrote:

"Brand New"

The word "Brand" originally comes from England around 1,000 years ago and means to make an indelible and unique mark of ownership on something. It was commonly used by blacksmiths of the time to make a mark on their items by burning a unique mark into them. (vis-a-vis cattle branding of today)

So these days when a claim of "Brand New" is made it implies that this item is new (ie never used) and the design is owned by the original maker of it.

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I stand corrected. 

Most people do use the term to refer to physical condition these days, but I think as brerrabbit pointed out, a legal definition is more important than a common usage one. 

[chameleon54]

https://www.cigarboxguitar.com/knowledge-base/legal-considerations-of-repurposing-branded-products-f...

An American article. If you havnt got anything to watch on the telly it is interesting. The issues of internationaly registered trademarks discussed in the article may have some relevance to the OP's concerns. Probably not a definative source though.

[the_alchemist_australia]

Yes an interesting read and thank you again chameleon. Funnily enough the States is the only eBay site where you can actually lodge an appeal against listings being removed and also the only country that the "React" group does not support.

I do purchase the items outright from Pandora at full retail price so I do own them but maybe wearing them for a while then gold plating them and selling some as used on occasion may be ok. Not willing to try my luck at the moment though.

My "I Gold Plate Pandora" Facebook group is only small but not sure if that is also looked at doing the wrong thing. It's more about "hey look what I gold plated today" and not really hitting people up to buy things. The brand carries a certain type of buyer and some treat it like a religion so what I am doing in their eyes is extremely bad and I attract a lot of haters. But that is just keyboard warriors in general and also a misunderstanding of what the gold plating process involves.

But regardless there is a demand for it and I now have buyers purchasing bathroom accessories and asking me to ship jewellery. Things are getting complicated and I wish I could steer them to the fb group but the whole communication monitoring which I have constantly on every message just makes it impossible.

[fr2243]

Any chance you can change your listing from a "gold plate Pandora"(which is a product) to a "gold plate service for jewelleries including Pandora"(which is a service)?

Your customer used to receive an altered Pandora with its original invoice(and your invoice of providing the gold plating service, if any). If you changed your listing from a product to a service, you can ask the customers to buy the Pandora items by themselves and ship the jewelleries to you(either from Pandora directly or the customers themselves). Eventually what they received from you will still be a piece of altered Pandora with its original invoice. There seems to be no change for everyone as far as Im concerned, except Pandora cant chase your back this time.

[k1ooo-slr-sales]

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@fr2243 wrote:

Any chance you can change your listing from a "gold plate Pandora"(which is a product) to a "gold plate service for jewelleries including Pandora"(which is a service)?

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nope, then they would likely be removed for Keyword Spamming, with the seller receiving another policy violation.

[the_alchemist_australia]

I used to have a listing up for a gold plating service and the title was "14K Gold Plating Service for Silver Charms Emma & Roe, Swarovski, Pandora & more" and it never was removed but I took it down when gold prices went up. Was thinking of trying it out again but with all those brand names in the heading I wonder if any one of them can then get it removed?

I have just now made a new listing with the title "Gold Plating Service for Silver Charms 10K, 14K, 18K, 24K, Rhodium, Palladium".

No mention of the brand names but plenty of pictures to show what I have done in the past.

Thinking now to do one for each item group such as charms, safety chains, bracelets etc etc.

I will still not mention brand names but may put in there bracelet included as an option in the drop down or charm included.

Not sure but I would like to be able to still do what I was doing as I love it and most people also loved it that purchased from me.

Doing custom listings for people now to buy things they are requesting and not using any mention of the Pandora name so I am hoping that is ok. The only thing that shows it is Pandora is the picture. OMG I need beer!

[digital*ghost]

Unfortunately it's not possible to list services on ebay - listings must be for a tangible item, with the exception of gift cards anyway, which are restricted. 

If the listings had not already attracted unwanted attention and been reported, I would suggest having the physical items, and using generic terms like "Upcycled European Bead" in the titles, and detailing the components used in the description. But I think that's a big risk now - if React or Pandora had responded to the OP's attempts at contact and advised what would be aceptable, I'd be a little more confident, but without that the concern that it could permanently affect or restrict my selling account would be too much to risk it.

I know that once upon a time, a lack of reply from whoever reported infringing listings was actually the best thing that could happen when listings were removed under VeRO, because the seller was basically disputing the claim directly with the company and eBay took no response to mean the seller's defence went uncontested, but that was a long time ago and I doubt it still works that way. 

Personally, I'd focus on social media - turn the FB group into a busines page, start an Instagram and / or Pinterest page showing the results of the plating (eg before and after pics), and maybe hold a little stock but primarily focus on the business as a service which doesn't limit it to a select few products. (That's just me, though, YMMV). 

[k1ooo-slr-sales]

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@the_alchemist_australia wrote:

Was thinking of trying it out again but with all those brand names in the heading I wonder if any one of them can then get it removed?

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any member can report a listing for Keyword spamming.